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Author Topic: Film Cleaning Can Damage Film
Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 16, 2013 10:42 AM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Film Cleaning can damage your film? Did you know this ? Here are a few comments I was told by experts that have been in the hobby for over 40 years. By cleaning film using any method you are rolling the dice on weather you will scratch a print with new dirt or from dirt that is already present on the film in one area and now loosened by your cleaner and moved across the print. That is why they have professional ultra sound cleaners to clean film without touching the print with material and cleaner or solvents! Simply a word to the wise. Chances are you scratched your prints cleaning them. More information is be very careful cleaning a print with cloth wipes because if a speck of dirt gets trapped in the cloth it will put a green line on a print. Never clean a print before viewing it. You should only spot clean a print if it has a spot of dirt on it. Never run a entire length of film thru a cloth and film cleaner. That is a sure fire way to scratch it. More damage is done to a print by people who think they are cleaning it. Best advice "Let it Be". Cleaners do more damage than good to a print. The smaller size films like 8mm and super 8mm scratch very easily, mainly because the equipment on the market to show the smaller size films are generally auto load projectors and are built below standard. Scratched prints were probably run on an auto load super 8 projector to have gotten any green scratches. The only projector I would run 16mm films for example on a Kodak pageant. All the pageants are manual threading machines and are known to be very gentle on films. Kodak Pageants were nicknamed The Protector Projector because they handle all conditions of 16mm films without damaging them. Tell me guys what are your comments about all this info?

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Julian Baquero
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 165
From: Bogota, Colombia
Registered: Mar 2011


 - posted May 16, 2013 11:43 AM      Profile for Julian Baquero   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for this information Laksmi, I always had my doubts about cleaning my films. A green emulsion line is far worst than a speck of dirt. Do cleaning agents have some effect on the film emulsion?

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted May 16, 2013 11:44 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Laksmi,well I have been handling film now for nearly 45 years
and have never experienced any damage by appling a lubricant
to the film proper.I used to use a soft cloth at first but soon
changed to chamois leather, as this doesn't leave fluff.The green
marks I would suspect have been acquired from the projector
used, as I have not experienced serious scratches of this nature from applying
a liquid cleaner/lubricant. Even Derek Simmonds advocated the
purchaser of a film to give it a treatment before projection,as this eradicated the "green print" judder and helped prevent
scratching, and Derek as you know,cut his teeth as an "old school" film projectionist.No I feel it safe to say that as long as
you follow the instructions applying the liquid,and change the
surface you're applying it with,there should be no problems.
If the print is very dirty,then I have found that passing it between two clean paint brushes will take off any surface muck
before application of a cleaner.The main cause of any film damage is down to the machine.Back in the early '70's, some
film libraries were seriously considering not hiring out s/8 prints
on account of the new films coming back ruined, the same did not apply to standard 8mm.The odds on film scratches are
increased everytime a film is projected.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 16, 2013 11:58 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is an argument that wearing a seatbelt can get you killed if it keeps someone from getting you out of a burning car.

-by the same token a lot more people get killed slamming into windshields than burning up in cars because they are trapped by their seatbelts.

So clean your films or not: no guarantees either way. You need to figure out what the odds are and take it from there.

(..and change the cloth often too!)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 16, 2013 12:47 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we should not forget the other reason to clean your films periodically, and that is the need to lubricate and prevent shrinkage. I do not use commercial film cleaners because I am concerned about health issues from volatiles. That's just me. So I use Armorall wipes which I have found do a pretty good job of cleaning and masking light scratches. And these wipes also lubricate and recondition the film base to help eliminate shrinkage and embrittlement. I have used Armorall on the dash of my '93 Honda Accord for the past 20 years, and the dash is just like new, which is really saying something in the Florida heat and sunshine. So I figure what is good for my car dash is also good for my films, and so far (15 years) it has worked out very well for me with no adverse effects - just clean, smoother running, prints.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted May 16, 2013 12:53 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
......and a very happy motorist.

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted May 16, 2013 12:57 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is that something like this?
http://www.handyhardware.ie/product/21089/Protectant-300ml

If not, can you link to a place selling?

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted May 16, 2013 01:01 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I've never seen the need to apply any chemical at all to my prints unless they need it. The idea of cleaning every print one acquires as a matter of course sounds totally unnecessary to me.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted May 16, 2013 01:56 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes a "raw" 8mm print straight from the labs,usually a
B/W print does need a lube,not so much in 16mm,but definately
8mm Michael, as they do tend to judder in projection.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted May 16, 2013 02:16 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You may be right, Hugh. I'm more familiar with 16. I know there are some collectors who clean every print they buy whether or not it's needed.

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007


 - posted May 16, 2013 02:17 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While I agree with the topic of this thread I can not say I heartily agree with the substance of your message Laksmi.

I manufacture a film cleaning system called "Film-O-Clean" - which is designed to be used constantly - meaning it is completely safe to use each time a film is projected.

Cleaning the film as it is projected:

- Lubricates the print and prevents excessive wear which leads to scratches

- Cleans the print which prevents not only hairs in the gate, but also works to prevent the accumulation of debris within the projector ( especially the gate )

- The film is cleaner than the last time you watched it, automatically. Unless of course it has no debris at all in which case it works to keep it in that pristine condition.

- Wet gate projection will hide base scratches by removing the debris from the scratch, then, leaving the void filled with a miniscule amount of fluid ( FilmGuard primarily )

- The cleaning media is constantly advancing, automatically, so fresh media is always in contact with the film. Likewise, dirt from the head will never touch the tail - unlike cleaning with a " t-shirt " or " webril "

- The cleaning media is manufactured by FilmTech is is soft enough to clean lenses without harming the lens coating.

Film-O-Clean has been tested by not only myself, but also Wittner-Cinetec - and our own Doug Meltzer provided a wonderful review here on this forum

Doug Meltzer's Film-O-Clean Review

Likewise there are others

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000622

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006228

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007250

Here is one of several videos on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OavNILdp3IU

Film-O-Clean is more than three years old - with not a single complaint nor request for refund/return.

Wittner-Cinetec performed independent testing of Film-O-Clean and verified that not only will it not damage film but that it is the best method for cleaning film bar none.

So .. while I agree that cleaning film improperly can and will damage film - I do not agree that cleaning film is detrimental to the film, I would state the opposite - that not cleaning film is a fantastic way to:

- Damage film while projecting
- Spread dirt from print to print
- Cause excess wear to the projector ( especially gate )
- Cause debris to accumulate within the projector
- and likely more pitfalls I am not considering at the moment

Granted, as a manufacturer - I am bound to be biased toward my own product - so I will ask and encourage others who have used Film-O-Clean to please share your own information and experiences. I feel this is important lest false or misleading information make its way into the books as 'fact'

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 16, 2013 02:32 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Laksmi,

I completely disagree with the quotes you opened this thread with. I will never run a film in my projector that I have not cleaned.

Like Hugh, in over forty years of handling film I have never once scratched a print by applying a cleaner/lubricant. I clean 8mm on hand-operated rewinds and change the cloth often. I would think one would have to apply quite a bit of pressure to the cloth to cause an emulsion scratch and also be winding quickly or using a motorized rewind. By going slowly and squeezing the cleaning cloth lightly, you can feel if there is dirt piling up and that it's time for a replacement.

Green prints should be lubricated, not only for the judder but also a coating will help protect your print in the film gate where those savage celluloid scratching specks are situated. Sorry about all those s words.....I'm still suffering from a severe case of alliteration sickness.

Once I clean a print I don't feel the need to clean it again for years & years, however Roy's Film-O-Clean is like a gentle booster shot for films at every screening.

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted May 16, 2013 02:39 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not to mention that clean lubricated prints dramatically reduce magnetic sound head wear.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted May 16, 2013 06:23 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wish a Film-O-Clean were in my budget.

I concur. Improper cleaning and handling can damage film, without a doubt. However, I've never damaged a film unless significant excess pressure was used, in combination with a situation where lubrication was needed. And it was really, really tough to do.

Laksmi, I really don't think the green scratch will happen from a cloth very easily because the particles will take the path of least resistance - which is into the fibers of the cloth. Very different from the unforgiving metal parts of a film gate. A green scratch from a cloth means WAY too much pressure and no lubrication.

It's not too hard, with a loupe under a bright light, to see minor surface abrasions.

Scariest thing I ever did was to "clear" a never-run polyester film (which scratches more easily than acetate) that had been treated years ago with Surfaset - leaving a thick waxy residue - by wiping it down with cotton cloth to make it "transparent" again. It took a crazy amount of pressure and passes to buff it down. Yet, no scratches, film is gorgeous, lubrication will last for many years. (The long lab leaders were VERY helpful for testing!)

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted May 16, 2013 07:14 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now....how can I convince the wife to let me buy one? [Roll Eyes]

Looked at Doug photos and the you-tube video....brilliant, when you think of the money spent on film, it would be nuts not to buy one of Roy amazing machine. It looks so professional [Cool] bolted on the front of the projector. The thing is, friction causes wear on the film in the gate and on sound head etc. What Roy has made, takes "care" of your films for many years to come....

What I have done in the past is to use "hand winders" as far apart as possible and very gently hold the film between fingers using old baby nappies "yes they are soft" left over from years gone by [Smile] ...with some "Thermofilm" when you could get it...and thats it. I never used the projector for rewinding films either, it was always done by hand.

Graham.

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 16, 2013 09:07 PM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Guys I have been cleaning films for over 40 years and my Elmo SC-18 has never felled me yet knock on wood. I never saw a green scratch that it ever produced ,it is as gentle as a babies bottom on my films.It was only a topic for discussion. [Smile]

--------------------
" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted May 16, 2013 09:12 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Laksmi - I'm puzzled with regard to where you found these experts. Like Doug and others, I completely disagree with them. I have cleaned and/or lubricated countless films and never scratched one by doing so. If I was scratching them, I would obviously notice the scratches upon projection and reconsider the wisdom of cleaning. I have occasionally cleaned 16mm prints that have soon left a cloth covered in dirt - how on earth would I "spot clean" such a film? Finally, the person who said that he would only run 16mm on Kodak Pageants really is talking complete nonsense and has clearly never used a modern Eiki, which I know from experience will not scratch films unless there's some sort of mechanical problem. Overall, I'd say that film collectors would be far better off ignoring their advice than following it!

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 16, 2013 09:37 PM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Okay Adrian, The guy is on eBay that gave me this info he has been in the hobby for 45 years. I though I would pass on the info. His name is Ed Greene and was selling 16mm prints of Disney and was one of their animators he is not a member of this forum. http://www.ebay.com/itm/121110694531?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

--------------------
" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted May 17, 2013 03:06 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
I completely agree with Adrian Laksmi,if you've been suffering
any scratches on your films, and by the sound of it,these green
and blue marks are serious defects.I don't think that damage as serious as that could be done by wiping with a wet rag,anyway
the scratch would "weave" and not be in one place consistantly.
A simple test,and one we can all do periodically,is to make a loop
of coloured waste film and run it for an hour or so in the projector
then examine for marks.I say again,that Elmo, with the plastic guides will eventually wear with use and mark film,a sad fact
but true, and yours will be no exception Laksmi.It's been done
to death on this forum,but the plastic by its nature will wear
and then the fun starts.I did send you print offs from mags
that identified the parts that cause the "aggro",but alas they
can't be replaced now.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted May 17, 2013 03:14 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
40+ years cleaning what must amount to miles of acetate and Poly film by hand using a lint free cloth and I dont see any scratches. As it says on the tin 'use a lint free cloth' [Cool]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted May 17, 2013 04:43 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At one time in all the projection rooms where I worked we had a Premier Film Waxer.
Being first run cinemas our films often came direct from the labs and were "green". Waxing helped them run through the projectors without any stability problems.
The waxers slid into a slot on the Premier 2000' rewinds and applied wax to the perforation areas only. On each side were slots which held the strips of wax, at the top was a weight which applied constant pressure as the strips wore down.
I should add that this device was for green prints and in no way did they clean, after all, the film was new!

--------------------
Maurice

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted May 17, 2013 05:19 AM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just to add my little bit. When I was buying new prints on super 8 I remember having a few that juddered on projection. On contacting the companies to ask why. They said its because its a "greenprint" use some 2.22 to lubricate them. It worked fine, and they went through quieter too. These prints were bought from "Powell Films" "Derann Films" and "Walton Films". Walton films were sometimes rough around the 'edges' where they were slit to 8mm.

16mm I usually check these once, but I found that almost all required cleaning of some sort.

I bought a 'ECCO' bench mounted cleaner  -
I use my 'Spondon' 6000ft powered arms to slowly take the film through, pulling the cloth cleaning rolls every few minutes to give a new surface. Quite amazing how much dirt does come off.

Also remember if you don't clean your films the dirt will go into your projector film path. This will cause other films to pick up the dirt and possibly scratches too.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted May 17, 2013 07:17 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got to say David, that the worst of the bunch were Derann
for a time with badly slit film that caused bad sideways weave.
Thankfully they sorted that one.I agree that 2.22 was a great
product and helped protect my films for many years, and was
good at hiding certain light marks.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted May 17, 2013 08:10 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Excuse me: what is 2.22?
Thankx

--------------------
Maurizio

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010


 - posted May 17, 2013 10:38 AM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hugh I still state that the marks were on the film when I bought them and films I already own have no marks. My Elmo has not marked my films yet? But every film gets marks when over used I guess? But over cleaned?

--------------------
" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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