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Author Topic: L&H Dirty Work: which Super 8mm print is best?
Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 720
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009

- posted May 28, 2016 08:21 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've just ran my Blackhawk of Dirty Work for the first time and was quite disappointed. Obviously the lack of original titles is a given, but the print itself looks a touch overexposed, and there are two brief black slugs lasting around half a second, one near the start and another halfway through. What are my chances of getting a print from a better negative, or should I look at another distributor?

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Terry Sills
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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
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- posted May 28, 2016 08:33 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are you sure it's a Blackhawk and not a dupe? I have a 16mm print of Dirty Work and it is excellent. None of the bad things you mention.

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
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- posted May 28, 2016 08:36 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Stuart some Blackhwaks are quite dissapointing, same with Waltons or any distributor.

But there are nice Blackhawks of this title around.

Thing is, sadly that when people sell films they will often exclude mentioning if its a duff print, or the sound drops out etc.

There are nice Waltons of this but quite a few washed out ones as well. Its not just down to the neg but who sets it all up on the day.

Derann prints took a nose dive on and off for instance when the labs let the regular super 8 chap go.

So hope you can pick a good one up, they are about but its getting the upfront and fair info from sellers.

Best Mark.

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
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- posted May 28, 2016 08:42 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Terry, it's in a Blackhawk box, and has Blackhawk titles!

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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- posted May 28, 2016 09:05 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My Blackhawk "Dirty Work" is kind of soft in focus, but doesn't have the blackouts.

-on the other hand my Blackhawk "Busy Bodies" has them. ("Crap! There goes the lamp!...No!...what?")

Different negatives in different condition at different times made for variable results even in the same title.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
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- posted May 28, 2016 09:24 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hah hah! And to think my Blackhawk Busy Bodies is just fine [Big Grin]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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- posted May 28, 2016 10:17 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mine is really nice except right at the point where we are watching the carpenters using the machines there are three of these black sequences within maybe 10 seconds.

-it's one of my favorite L&Hs too. I call it the worst industrial safety film ever made!

I'd have preferred they insert this still instead of the black frames:

-

-but I guess it's a little late for suggestions!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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- posted May 28, 2016 11:50 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I uswed to have a silent version of this and upgraded to a sound copy a little while back. The sound copy is much better, just a tad bit dark but otherwise, a nice print.

It can be rather hit or miss with these Laurel and hardy's, whether Blackhawks or otherwise. I was looking at "Beau Hunks" yesterday and it's in the "miss" category.

However, Blackhawks sound print of "The Music Box" is stellar in every department, sound, sharpness, grain ect. I have heard on this title that in some cases, the first reel is great, and the second reel can really suffer. [Frown]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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John Hermes
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From: La Mesa, CA, USA
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- posted May 28, 2016 12:25 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My super 8 print of "One Good Turn" has many black slugs. I remember when I bought a new print of "The Music Box" back in the 1970s that it was one of the ones with a very soft second half. Blackhawk prints did vary a lot.

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John Hermes

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Jack Silverstein
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- posted May 29, 2016 04:04 PM      Profile for Jack Silverstein   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Silverstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"I have nothing to say".

My Blackhawk 16mm print of Dirty Work is in
very good condition. On my 16mm One Good Turn
there are some momentary blackouts. I wonder
what causes them.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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- posted May 29, 2016 04:12 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's a case of damaged negatives.

Maybe Blackhawk decided the partial second of black with a continuous soundtrack was less jarring than a jump in both.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Gordon G. Ellis
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- posted May 29, 2016 04:34 PM      Profile for Gordon G. Ellis   Email Gordon G. Ellis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve K said:
"I think it's a case of damaged negatives. Maybe Blackhawk decided the partial second of black with a continuous soundtrack was less jarring than a jump in both."

This has been my understanding. Back in my earliest days as a teenage collector, I had a Super 8 silent print of Busy Bodies with those black frames. My sound print of Busy Bodies is okay — although I'm not sure exactly when it was printed.

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Mike Newell
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- posted May 29, 2016 04:55 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Dirty Work prints I had two Walton prints both weren't perfect but were sharper than the Blackhawk print which was grainy and slightly soft. The down side of the Walton prints were that they were slightly edited including the classic electric chair line from the butler.

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Joseph Randall
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From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
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- posted May 29, 2016 09:45 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I went thru 6 prints of DIRTY WORK over a 30 year period before I got one that satisfied me. 3 were in Super 8, 3 in 16mm, 4 were Blackhawks, 2 were Films Classics. I settled on a 16mm Film Classics -- and even that one has an issue -- a very short main title. But the picture quality is off-the-charts great. This probably doesn't help much since you asked about Super 8.

For BEAU HUNKS, the one to get is the Blackhawk with the combination of re-issue titles and Blackhawk titles -- not the Blackhawk with Film Classics titles.

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Osi Osgood
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- posted May 31, 2016 12:58 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! This must be a beloved short of the Lads for you to go out of you're way to get "Dirty Work".

Beau Hunks ... when you say original titles, is that the one with 'Blackhawk" for a short bit and then what appears to be "original" title cards with a stone background with the titles in front?

I love the lads but I'm not that much of an expert.

With the re-issues of the lot of these Laurel and hardy films, Blackhawk did incorporate more of the original titles when they were available. I've been quite curious about "BRATS". Every Blackhawk copy, on super 8, has been of marginal focus, not all that hot, though i have a quite old super 8 silent version of it by Blackhawk which, while the focus is about the same, the "contrast" of the print is much better with a very wide range of grey tones.

I wonder if the standard 8mm prints of this with sound, might be a little better from Blackhawk. Either that, or the original negative material just wasn't up to the par with they're other releases. Too bad, as "Brats" is definitely among my favorites.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Allan Broadfield
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- posted May 31, 2016 01:53 PM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could some of these examples of black frames have come from dupes made from old vitaphone prints?
A print originaly released with vitaphone discs had blank frames joined in at damaged points so as to keep sync with the disc.
If this is the case, a dupe from a print would also account for a contrasty grainy image.
Just a suggestion.

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Mike Newell
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- posted May 31, 2016 02:17 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The best Beau Hunks print was the Cinema Entertainment Company full length print. It was printed on polyester black & white stock and print and sound were superb for Laurel & Hardy. There was also an edited Derann print issued at same time on an 600' spool at Blackpool convention at the time as a spoiler. I had the full length print so never purchased Derann release.

Brats print is problematic I had Blackhawk and Derann prints both were not great but Derann was slightly better.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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- posted May 31, 2016 02:30 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Allan, I like your theory.

I would expect the black sections to show wear like the rest of the film if this was the case. I think they look pretty pristine, but then again why would I pay that much attention normally?

I'll have to run my "Busy Bodies" and check it out.

EDIT: "Busy Bodies" came out in 1933 with the Western Electric Sound System.

-sound on film.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

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- posted May 31, 2016 02:49 PM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Steve. I suppose wear on the original black frames would perhaps only print through if emulsion had been removed.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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- posted May 31, 2016 02:53 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
-good point.

Just for science, I'd like to check it out!

(-as I said: one of my favorites!)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Allan Broadfield
Master Film Handler

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From: Bromley, Kent
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- posted May 31, 2016 03:10 PM      Profile for Allan Broadfield   Author's Homepage   Email Allan Broadfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You may have hit on the vital flaw in my idea, but from what I've read, vitaphone discs were issued with prints several years through the thirties for backwood cinemas that couldn't afford to make the change to optical sound due to costs involved.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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- posted May 31, 2016 03:16 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm seeing that too.

That's the chance you take being an early adopter of a technology.

The early bird gets the worm, but the better prepared bird that shows up second gets ALL the worms!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Tom Photiou
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- posted May 31, 2016 03:42 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We have the Walton dirty work and have to say its excellent in every way. [Wink]

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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler

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- posted May 31, 2016 04:44 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi,

That sounds right -- "L&H in" is re-issue title (not Film Classics), followed by "Beau Hunks" Blackhawk white-on-black title, followed by the rest of the re-issue titles. I say "re-issue" rather than "original" since they are from the 1937 re-issue, not the original 1931 issue.

The better BRATS print has a Blackhawk "L&H in" title, followed by 1937 re-issue titles.

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Stuart Reid
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From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
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- posted May 31, 2016 05:10 PM      Profile for Stuart Reid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, is the walton print of Dirty Work edited down?

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