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Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 26, 2019 09:36 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Bob. Looks like your camera is programmed for level trigger instead of edge. It is triggering on high level instead of rising edge.
Can you get the model number of the camera. We will have to contact the tech support.

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Bob Vito
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Otisville, MI, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 06:42 AM      Profile for Bob Vito         Edit/Delete Post 
The camera model number is DFM 72BUC02-ML.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 08:08 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I sent the question to imagingsource.

What firmware and driver version do you have?

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Bob Vito
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Otisville, MI, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 08:42 AM      Profile for Bob Vito         Edit/Delete Post 
DFM 72BUC02-ML
Serial #08910106
Firmware Revision 140
Driver Version 2.9.8.2001

Thanks for contacting them.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 27, 2019 12:11 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks a lot, Stan, for you greats tests and all your helps.

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 01:39 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
YEAH, Thanks Stan!

On the subject of triggers, I would like the option to trigger an external camera with the Hawkeye. I plan to use a dlsr and/or other camera that uses a momentary switch from the usb/multi port. I think the best way to do this and protect the camera, would be thru a relay. The shutter triggers when the leads are connected.

Your thoughts? This does not need to be added to the Hawkeye, I could connect my own.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 02:14 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for your support.
David, a solid state relay should work. Look for one that runs at 3.3V and then you do not need any mods.

The latest IC Capture instructions are here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_TaVulHyo31rpYCjGHBHQxAQG2Sfsoym/view?usp=sharing

Pretty happy with the results. Do not use any corrections with Film9 but run the final video through Movie Magix and the colors look nice and pretty natural (in my eyes).
Will post the clip.
BTW - the clip has a flicker midway. That is that double frame capture that Bob experienced and that is where I implemented the fix.
Also I reduced the takeup timing and looks like it worked but will double check.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 27, 2019 03:40 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I see that it works a lot to improve our homemade telecinema.
For my part, I work on a control panel with switches and leds (to learn and have fun on Kicad) if it can be useful.

This PCB will can be screwed on the future telecine front cover (3D printing design not finished yet)...

As you see I put leds everywhere (I have visual problems and it will help me, but they are optionnal).

this is not really useful but remains fun to achieve !
It's not over yet, it's a draft. I'll send it to Stan for validation when it's over.
If Stan agrees of course! Waiting for the V8 ... [Wink] [Smile]

 -

[ November 27, 2019, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 05:26 PM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan thanks very much for dedicating so much time to help everyone. Just a very minor correction, page 6 of your instructions you indicated a resolution of 1080 x 1024, I assume you meant it to be 1280 x 1024.
Regards - Bruce
P.S. for anyone who might be interested, I use VirtualDub v2 with Huffyuv lossless codec to assemble all the images into an avi video format file, it reduces file size considerably. If using Film9 the only lossless codec option is Lagarith.

[ November 28, 2019, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Davis ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 27, 2019 08:19 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting looking front panel Kamel. Sure I would be more than happy to do the test.

Thanks Bruce. Here is version3 with the correction and additional note at the end.
Edit - A few changes added - now V4
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Omu9B6pfP8tK6-HPwwwrmD9JyaheP583/view?usp=sharing

Bob, got a reply from imagingsource engineer and she is puzzled and says that she never came across issue like this but will look into it. Here is another test. Connect the trigger to 3.3V directly (will have to cut the trigger + cable) and see if it triggers continuously. I can send you a new cable after the test.

Bruce - you wrote:
I use AviSynth v2 with Huffyuv lossless codec to assemble all the images into an avi video format file

Can you share the script that you use. Would like to try it.

[ November 28, 2019, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Bruce Davis
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: Sep 2019


 - posted November 28, 2019 08:46 AM      Profile for Bruce Davis   Author's Homepage   Email Bruce Davis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan Jelavic sorry Stan I incorrectly wrote AviSynth instead of VirtualDub v2, no script required, just need to click on file tab and "Open video file...".

In the Open video file window select "Linked segments" and "Image sequence input level(internal)" then the first image in the sequence "Open" (I always save captures in tiff format).

Before saving click on the Video tab then select "Compression" and whatever form of compression you would like to use.
Back to File tab and "Save video...".

Sorry I misled you or others - Bruce

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 28, 2019 08:59 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No problem Bruce. Will try that. Thank you.

Added another section on the bottom of the capture document:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CMEoCWHi623Jpmnu17UW963zGnEPICd2

This is the proof in the pudding in my opinion.
Hawkeye is better and it does what we intended it to do:
- FRAME GRAB
- LESS ARTIFACTS
- BETTER RESOLUTION
- Open Design
- On a fly adjustments

It requires more work during scan but you get better quality.
Curious to see your inputs.

[ November 28, 2019, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 28, 2019 12:10 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan,
The question does not arise! Hawkeye is better! In addition, it allows us a freedom of scan. separate still images that can be post-processed as we want.

This is what I've been looking for a long time ... Of course there are small things to improve but overall it's great! [Smile]

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 28, 2019 10:19 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm on the sidelines here, just watching the results that have been posted. It's looking good, just some annoying little bugs that are almost fixed!

The motors and the claw are at your command. Impressive. Equally the recommendations for exposure and tone quality are very important to be set during capture. Not everyone would be as successful. They are well worth the effort.

I have only 3 things left to order. I have held off on the camera and lens, though I have no problem with the camera.

Some time ago talking about the limits of the current lens and others, you mentioned using a c-mount lens. I have to believe you knew it is an option for this camera. I thought it would involve starting over.

I noticed the image you posted for Bob of the Hawkeye camera. It has a c-mount lens! I had no idea it can be ordered that way. I say that assuming it would project a larger sensor image. I know it's not that simple, and it would be huge.

I don't think the dslr option I will try can be enduring. The setup will be cumbersome and not something I'll do more than once or twice.

I digress, the pudding is delicious!

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 28, 2019 10:43 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Kamel. Like your positive attitude.
Good inputs David. I used the C mount at work and the lens is pretty big and would require a different mechanical arrangement. I have a few spare Wolverine units here that I use for testing and at one point I will bring in the Bassler camera with the C mount lens and mount the whole thing on a board all loose parts and see what I get. The big advantage of the C mount is as you said you can get a larger image that covers the sensor but also adjustable aperture that is a must.

Here is the updated instructions.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r60hjc81AR9okJSQ_IQ5tpX-TJWBswx-/view?usp=sharing

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Bob Vito
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Otisville, MI, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted November 29, 2019 08:20 AM      Profile for Bob Vito         Edit/Delete Post 
Stan, I pulled the trigger+ wire out of the white connector that attaches to cam sync on the Hawkeye board. This would be the wire that is closest to the two short pieces of wire in the white connector. I held the wire to the +3VDC terminal on the board - basically what is described in the photo from your Nov 26, 7:46AM post. I started up IC Capture and turned on the machine. When the wire is touching the +3VDC terminal, it captures frames continuously. When I remove the wire, no frames are captured.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 29, 2019 08:50 AM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I will forward your input to the imagingsource engineer, Bob. May be a faulty camera.

HERE IS LATEST UPDATE ON JITTER:

Did a test with no takeup tension, pulsed tension, and continuous tension. Found out that the jitter is significant in all three cases. Studying the claw operation found out that the gate cover is inserting quite a bit of force on the film. On some film the claw is not perfectly aligned and it hits the film and then engages the hole. Extra tension does not help that and could cause jitter.
So, I applied teh Wolverine fix for wide film:
https://www.wolverinedata.com/assets/downloads/Wider_Film_test.pdf

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1u9hygTttNQCSsZH9

That almost eliminated all jitter even with the standard Wolverine it is almost gone.
Here is the test:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ywUfD9mK4XAgroUe9

Try using different number paper pieces. It also may be possible that the cover is too loose in which case you have to adjust the cover screws.

So, looks like this should fix the jitter issue and capstan should work as is - no changes except for capstan connector.

HAWKEYE RUNNING 1 FPS
Running 1 FPS. Tested JPEG for now. Will check BMP and TIFF later.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LLSnMuAigquTyhaU9

And the resulting video:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zc3Wpkoxf9oka7ba9

TIFFs also work [Smile]
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YUqeojzQKLw7HENF6
Set slow frame rate in Virtual Dub...

One issue - capstan code is disabled because MSP cannot keep up.. will have to test.
Also possible 2 FPS I think... will need some more work.

[ November 29, 2019, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 29, 2019 03:37 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! What a nice job Stan, it gives us motivation. Thank you really for sharing. [Smile]
Damage to the capstan because I really need it and the speed of 1im / sec is really great.
What resolution did you capture? 1600x1200? because
for the BMP or tiff files, the hard disk does not follow the pace. Need a very good pc very fast?
The progress that has been made in recent weeks is enormous and make us want to continue improving this telecine.
Long live the hawkeye [Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 29, 2019 06:02 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a fast PC Kamel. I will test the capstan at 1FPS. 2 FPS may be possible by changing the size of motor step. Would be a bit noisier. At 2 FPS not sure if the TIFFs will be available but JPEGs are pretty good quality. If this works I would set it for two speeds 2FPS and 1FPS so it is a speed vs quality...

RUNNING at 2 FPS. JPEG IMAGES.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ss2Fk2iEP8HcFf5F8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wajr5Rr4bptq1BXU9

The capstan is still possible but will need some more thinking.
Several possible solutions. Will discuss with Kamel.

[ November 29, 2019, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted November 30, 2019 04:21 AM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan,
1FPS is already very good ! Go speed it is automatically compress more and lose quality or then provide a switch 3 ou 4 positions: 1FPS-2FPS-1F2S and rewind for those who would one day capture in 2K / 4K. To think about ...
If I have to design new parts or supports, no problem. With pleasure ! I Love Hawkeye mods ! [Smile]

[ November 30, 2019, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted November 30, 2019 12:33 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did some testing and a 4 position switch looks doable:

1 FPS
2 FPS
0.5 FPS
Rewind

The board and front panel will have to be redesigned. Nothing major.
Capstan available in 0.5 FPS mode only.

We are getting close to running the Hawkeye similar to Wolverine.
The speed is close, and no adjustments during scan.
Run auto exposure and fixed white balance and WDR preset (very important).
Post-processing can be run in parallel to scanning so no time lost there.

SUGGESTION:
I would like to finish the board ver8. In the meantime can some of you with Hawkeye and another machine comment on transfer quality.

- resolution - do we have to go higher. Not optical but maybe more pixels per frame. 2K is possible (will double check) with existing setup and C mount
(different camera)
https://www.oemcameras.com/dfk-72buc02.htm

- white balance - I think further improvements are needed - Am I right? Can someone compare with side by side with other setup.
If it is way off I am willing to write our own capture based on algorithms published by:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZniFhJR17M&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
I really like the results.

- LED - it is blue - I checked that and that is probably why Wolverine has a blue tinge because they do not compensate well for that.
We can correct for that but still needs improvement. I opened up the LED enclosure and have an idea how it can be changed
to RGB led that "DIY Cool" used.

- I will try DSLR setup with my spare Wolverine. Essentially dismantle the unit and mount components on a piece of wood. See what kind
of quality I get. Is it worth going that way in a long run?

Just be honest... We put in lots of work and some money into this but should not be biased by that.

[ December 01, 2019, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted December 01, 2019 12:49 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Stan, of course having better quality is great. It was the goal, otherwise it is useless if it is to return to the stock Wolverine.
I think it's amazing how far the progress made with your skills and your ideas.
If we can still improve this telecine now, I totally agree.
in default of 4k the 2K would already be very good if the system is reliable (not jitter).
But I do not know how to help for the moment.

I can design the supports for the new test configuration camera...

all your tests interest me a lot and I admit that I wait impatiently the tests progression. (LED,Capstan, Takeup,USB,...)

I will modify the design of my front PCB and 3D Printing control panel based on your progress. Tell me how can I help... [Wink] [Smile]

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David Brown
Film Handler

Posts: 42
From: Centerville, UT, USA
Registered: Oct 2019


 - posted December 01, 2019 01:32 PM      Profile for David Brown   Email David Brown   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
5 things that cause film capture to jitter.

1. There is inherently some jitter with film.
Here is a recent super8, shot in October this year. If you buy Kodak super8 today it is processed and scanned by Kodak.

"iceland on SUPER 8

2. Slow SD card. This a streaming problem, single frame captures would show up differntly. Not sure what would happen if the capture rate exceeds the save rate?

3. Torn sprocket holes, when not completly torn through.
capture the film backwards, the top of the sprocket hole will be intact. This also can help reduce the severity of deep scratches that are reflecting light. This is more of a problem with the light source. The Wolverine's light should be very difuse, the light source is at the end of the panel, not directly under it.

4.The width of the film. I never heard of this issue before the Wolverine! The paper in the door clearly works as Stan's test shows. Wolverinedata says to fold the paper 4 times. That is too much, I can't even close the gate. I don't know why this method works, the gate seems to be made of one piece. I'm not going to verify that!

5. Gate pressure is too tight. I'm still looking for more information on that. I expect extra thickness with Super8 sound. Splices should not matter inside the gate.

Changing gate pressure might be too hard for many. I have just completely dismantled the Wolverne and while there, I will be playing with gate pressure.

Has anyone adjusted the 3 pressure screws?

Mike, did you do this?

From October: There are two screws that can be unscrewed half a turn, to increase the downward pressure on the film in the gate.

Since I'm suggesting capturing backwards, Here is The best editors of 2019. Free versions in the first 7 minutes.

Primal Video-Best editors

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted December 01, 2019 02:39 PM      Profile for Stan Jelavic   Email Stan Jelavic   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kamel, I am not ruling out 4K. Just more money.. I wanted to take one of the 2K or 4K cameras and import it to one of the 3D cad programs together with Wolverine mechanics and see how it fits. Maybe you can help in this area since you have quite a bit of experience in 3D.
David, pretty stunning video. The quality is pretty amazing. Now you will have to spill your secrets out for us he he.. I know you discussed the tools before but would like to know the process that you used in this transfer.

I used 3 pieces of paper between the cover and the gate. Close the cover partially and slide the paper from right to left until you hit a small tab. Then press on the cover and close it. Pretty sure that is the cause of my jitter issues. The cover screws are all the way in (least force) and the film is too tight without the paper. With the paper in the scanner goes almost completely silent.

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018


 - posted December 01, 2019 05:57 PM      Profile for Kamel Ikhlef   Email Kamel Ikhlef   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panel Command V2 with new switch 4 positions and picoblade 5 pins.

 -

it's Christmas leds garlands !... [Wink]
I hope my shematic is correct ? I am electronic beginner... to test...

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