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Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer

Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 14, 2019 10:14 PM

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Got the Wolverine stepper controller working. Here is the demo.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5fNX1amyt6PErfnx5
It runs one full turn in 16 seconds which is 1 frame in 4 seconds. That was actually quite a bit of work trying to figure out which pins go where. The controller is driven by the MSP430G2 controller (14 pin dip ic). Now, have to add it to the design and get the new version of the board done. All fun [Smile]

[Smile]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 15, 2019 01:11 AM

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Great ! Stan... Impressive Work ! [Smile]

[Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 17, 2019 10:50 PM

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Got the first proto put together.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/94TGbAXSxi1LNHjn9
1 frame in 4 seconds:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7aFTXCVaoWutHFgg8
Takeup motor control
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cihFtcHgKc6xHQcc9
External camera trigger with auto image save.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fceFrHVqXcrVxqoN9
Pretty close to getting the new board done.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted July 18, 2019 04:45 AM

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that is really quite an achievement Stan.

My only reservation is that 1 frame every four seconds is really going to increase the scanning time.

I guess that is the trade off for the serious increase in quality.

My math is rubbish but a quick calculation suggests that one second of film (18 frames) would take around 1 minute 10 seconds to scan.

does that sound about right?
That said, I would be very interested in doing this one day.

[ July 18, 2019, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 18, 2019 07:05 AM

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I renew my admiration to Stan who did an incredible job there.

The quality of this telecine will be such that time does not matter. .

Being independent of the choice of his camera and the choice of compression or not of his scanned frames is an unexpected advance. Again, congratulations Stan.

For my part, I fell behind the design of the capstan of my toothed pulley, (problems on my 3D printer).

I'm also thinking about creating a safer film guide rail so as not to scratch the movies. before and after the shooting window. maybe also a housing to avoid the parasitic lights ...

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 18, 2019 08:48 AM

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Thank you Mike and Kamel for you support and encouragement. This was quite a little project and work but it was fun. Not done yet but getting very close. Mike, you math is good and yes it is slow. But on the other hand I have not done any timing analysis on it. It is quite possible to speed it up. Will have to check that. I am adding two jumpers for speed selection. 4 selections will be available:
- 0.5 sec
- 1 sec
- 2 sec
- 4 sec
Other choices can be done by reprogramming the controller.
Also adding the connection for run/pause switch. For now I will use a small pcb that fits where the display was and mount the switch there. If Kamel makes a new front cover then could add a switch on it. There is a forward/reverse capability but we cannot use it because the it could damage the cam.
BTW - the takeup motor control is done by checking the frame start and it gets turned on while the claw is pulling the film. That way there is no force on the film when the claw is engaging and dis-engaging the film.

[ July 18, 2019, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 19, 2019 09:35 PM

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Here is a quick update:
Got the new board version on order:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gDwQhC1yJmX5NG1t6
Spoke to Imagingsource and got the new lens mount for their camera:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/g5MyTBfk9aca9xKi7
Works very well.
The part number is: TLH 10-2S
Tested the speed requirements. Looks like 2 seconds per frame is good for high quality jpeg images.
Here is the gizmo in operation running 1 frame per second.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Q4wBhrh6tWjR2ubS7
Will post the video with 2 seconds per frame shortly.
Here it is:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ygh2hFg1sV4Lw9UX6
This is with Imagingsource cam
12mm lens
takeup pulsed control
camera gamma set to 69 (0.69)
camera auto white balance
manual exposure
camera sharpen set to 10

[ July 19, 2019, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 20, 2019 03:43 AM

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Beautiful advanced Stan! We see very well the quality of the image is clearly better or excellent, curious to see on the clip SMPTE the number of line of resolution. for the camera hole on the new board why not make a rectangular hole ('I guess to predict more type of camera? What work accomplished from the beginning!...

I am far from reaching your result and I will already be very happy to obtain this quality with a scrolling reliability of the film. so, congratulations again.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

Posts: 421
From: none of your business
Registered: Jun 2017

posted July 20, 2019 04:26 AM

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Absolutely brilliant Stan
The final result is quite remarkable
The take up is without doubt, very clever too.
2 frames per second is excellent.

It just goes to show how stable the claw mechanism really is looking at how steady your film scan is.
Lovely result I would be very proud to achieve.

I want one!
Stunning.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 20, 2019 07:06 AM

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Will check the lines of resolution Kamel. The rectangular hole is not as easy to do. Tried it but the pcb manufacturer auto tool does not do the cut. Will have to check with them. Maybe just a larger circular hole for the next spin.
The speed is 2 seconds per frame Mike. So that is 4 times slower than Wolverine. Not sure if that will work for you. If we implement the capstan then you do not have to be there all the time next to the machine and the speed is not as relevant but not sure if the film can get jammed.. It may be possible with the capstan. You have more experience with that. BTW, just received the capstan motor and the drag is very low and will not damage the film, which was my concern. The motor has a rotation activated switches that I plan to use to send an alert if the film is stuck.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

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From: none of your business
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posted July 20, 2019 10:01 AM

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2 seconds per frame.
I mis read your details.
Even so, for the quality achieved I think it is perfectly acceptable

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 20, 2019 10:31 AM

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Good to hear that. I will probably build and test 5 of them. I will also update the mod instructions.

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Kamel Ikhlef
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From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 20, 2019 05:34 PM

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maybe two round holes side by side or indeed, a bigger round hole if it's possible ... It's just for the aesthetics.

Finally it is not very important for the proper functioning of the super telecine that you are realizing ... [Smile]

[Smile]

I'm late on my 3d prints ... I'll try to move forward next week.

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 20, 2019 07:49 PM

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Quite honestly looked like Mickey a bit [Smile]

[Smile]

Here is the larger hole version.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BcoF6JX8TimHBKGF8
Believe it should work ok. Totaled the BOM and it came around $50 including the board. Obviously no camera included. Will have to figure out how much labor it is to solder all of it together. Willing to send out a few boards for free possibly one to Mike and one to you Kamel so that you guys can shake it and bake it.
For the brave souls I am including the link to design files so they can do it on their own:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MMmlUWHz7w44APn17G6LOgz58oBRpv1r?usp=sharing
BTW received your lens mount Kamel and will try it tomorrow. Thank you very much for your support.

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Mike Spice
Master Film Handler

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From: none of your business
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posted July 21, 2019 05:15 AM

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It's a long way from Lauderdale to the UK Stan!
I would love to be able to mod my wolverine.

I meant to post you a photo back on July 4th from Lauderdale, I was there for the bi centennial in 76.

I have very fond memories of the place, and driving the alligator Alley over to Naples Bay Estate to stay with family.

I would happily pay postage for a board but I don't know if I would be able to actually bring it to life.

I have great soldering skills and understanding of what is being done here.

Suppose I have the board, what sort of cost am I looking at to complete the project?

Your work is remarkable, I hope someone from Wolverine gets to see the work you have done and hang thier heads in shame!

The photo I should have posted for you.
HMS Ark Royal alongside in Lauderdale.
So many visitors. July 4th. 1976.
I was a cook with 892 Phantom Squadron.

[ July 21, 2019, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Mike Spice ]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 21, 2019 09:13 AM

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Thank you for the nice photo Mike from the time passed. Probably have lots of good memories. Ft Lauderdale is still a nice place to come and see.
I can send you the board and the parts together with the test instructions. Should not be too hard.
In addition you will need the camera:
DFM 72BUC02-ML $125.13
The lens:
TBL 12-2 C 5MP - 12mm M12 Color Lens f/2.8 $39.95
and the lens mount:
TLH 10-2s
Around $20
all from oemcameras.com
or maybe you can get it direct from
theimagingsource.com (UK based)

Yeah it is a shame that Wolverine did not do a better job. It is OK to try to keep the costs down but they should have kept an open concept where people can easily add and enhance things.
Cheers

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

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From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 21, 2019 01:17 PM

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Ah! OK Stan, very well. A week to reach your home from France. it's a bit long, but the main thing is that it has arrived.

the lens support of 16mm can be used to directly frame the film (zoom in HD 1920x1080 - full sensor is too large for capture). Thanks to you for advancing our project of digitizing our movies with better quality. This weekend, I had my children at home, I will resume my 3D printing and the design of the capstan and housing case tomorrow. [Smile]

[Smile]

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 22, 2019 08:31 AM

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Hope you had lots of fun with your kids Kamel. Family is always first.
I never tried the 16mm lens to improve the resolution. Will get one and try it. Have to use longer standoffs for the camera and the lens holder has to be longer. You tested the holder with the 16mm but ultimately we have to test it mounted in the projector. Additionally, the camera alignment becomes more critical.
BTW - added three switches to the board:
- Run/Pause
- Speed Select
- Fan

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Kamel Ikhlef
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 213
From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 22, 2019 08:57 AM

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Great, Stan ! your system improves again and again for our greatest pleasure ... [Smile]

[Smile]

For the 16mm, I'm not sure that the resolution is better. the depth of field is reduced and it becomes difficult to make a very precise focus.

The more you retreat from the surface of the film, the less depth of field you have? and harder is the sharpness. Finally, I think but I could be wrong ...

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Stan Jelavic
Master Film Handler

Posts: 314
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 22, 2019 07:33 PM

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That is a very good point Kamel. The higher the focal length the worse the DOF (depth of field). To compound the problem the 16mm is darker and you need the smaller F stop (1.6 - lets more light in) but that reduces the DOF.
Possibly use:
[URL=http://www.scorpionvision.co.uk/Catalog/Machine-Vision-Lens/m12-lenses/near-field-far-field-m12-lenses/s-mount-16mm-f4-0-macro-lens]
But this one does not have the IR filter and at F4 will need longer exposure.

They say the proof is in the pudding.
Here is the Wolverine SMPTE test. Struggles above 40 lines of resolution.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GJVkfoB1rbNirmbG6

And here is with the imagingsource camera and 12mm F2.8 lens:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2Voabg9foB5mLD5k9

Over 60 easily...

[ July 22, 2019, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Stan Jelavic ]

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Kamel Ikhlef
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From: Arches, France
Registered: Oct 2018

posted July 23, 2019 03:44 PM

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in France they say: it's day and night. That's why it is important to improve this telecine. Stan, you get a better result than the one I made by a super 8 professional transfer lab . You are not far from the limit of 80 lines of resolution! [Smile]

[Smile]

We can even push further, with 4K. the source imaging camera has a 2592x1944 sensor. the 4K resolution is 3840x2160. for the super 8 we do not need the full width. so full sensor, we have almost the entire image. the image ratio is the same 4/3.To test...

Object (film) is at a finite distance.
width Size of the object(mm): 5.46 or 5.79 full super 8 frame
width Size of the image(mm) imaging source camera sensor: 5.7
Object to image distance(mm): 48mm with a F12mm M12 Lens
The object distance: 24.2mm
The image distance: 23.8mm
For the moment, tests outside the Wolverine telecine.
I continue my tests and my 3D prints... [Smile]

[Smile]

[ July 25, 2019, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Kamel Ikhlef ]

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Brian Fretwell
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posted July 24, 2019 02:21 AM

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The Wolverene picture also seems to show elements of edge sharpening ("ringing") around sharp changes of brightness.

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Brian Fretwell
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posted July 24, 2019 02:22 AM

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The Wolverene picture also seems to show elements of edge sharpening ("ringing") around sharp changes of brightness.

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Kamel Ikhlef
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From: Arches, France
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posted July 24, 2019 04:33 AM

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yes, for wolverine, they make us believe in a better resolution by a digital video enhancement. But despite this, the 40 lines are barely reached. Stan's result is one of the best so far.

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Stan Jelavic
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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jan 2019

posted July 24, 2019 09:00 AM

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Good thinking Kamel. The issue may be DOF again. Since the lens will be closer to the object (film) the DOF will decrease as per the formula:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eCBBvCPgRiBUa1CC9
In the formula "u" is the distance from the lens to the object. As you can see, the DOF degradation is proportional to the square of the distance. As you get closer the DOF degrades rapidly.
But I tried it and I think it is doable.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bJoTmbWyVxwvzdeZ8
Had to bring the camera closer to the mounting plate and do not have the right standoffs so the camera may not be perfectly square and causes some blurring on the right hand side. Will try to get the right standoffs and test it again.

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