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Author Topic: Lenses for Elmo ST180
Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 02:20 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi!

I am wondering, what lenses can I use with my Elmo ST-180?

I am looking for a lens that produces a large picture with short throw distance, and an anamorphic lens.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 04, 2010 03:56 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christian,

The 'big picture' lens choice for Elmo in general is the F1.1 12.5-25mm unit (this is the upgrade lens from the standard 1.3 model.)
In addition to having a wider zoom, it is also optically better than the 1.3; that has at least been my experience from comparing 2 of each to each other.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 04:13 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Claus is right.
This lens is normally supplied with GS 1200 projectors. Maybe someone here on the Forum can provide it for you. It's possible to find this lens for sale, but not at a very cheap price.

I suggest you to contact Kevin Faulkner. I'm sure he could have one for sale or, at least, telling you how to get one at a good price.
He will be also in a position to suggest you a good anamorphic lens. Or, even better, sell one he could have.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 04:16 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Gian, do you have his email address?

--------------------
Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 04:20 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
super8 (at) mrelmo (dot) co (dot) uk

Another great Elmo collector and expert is Mr. Ugo Grassi.
Try to contact him at:
ugo.grassi (at) email (dot) it

Let us know [Wink] .

Ciao.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 04:47 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have mailed them both, will get back to you with results [Wink]

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 04:48 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In bocca al lupo (good luck).

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 04, 2010 05:10 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This issue is also for me since I have a short distance throw between the screen and the projector resulting small projection.

Now, my lens is 1.3, if you guys are telling here to use 1.1 lens in order to get a bigger projection. What will be the increase (in percentage), eg. 10% bigger?

Secondly, what about with 1.0 lens, is it even bigger?

What that number means to you?

cheers,

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Winbert

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 04, 2010 05:34 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

Two things at work here:

The focal length (12.5mm-on up) of a projection lens determines the size of image you can get with it from a set distance.
The F-stop (1.0-1.3) tells you the 'speed' of the lens, in terms of light 'efficiency'.

From the same projection distance, a lens with a maximum wide angle of 12.5mm will produce a bigger image than a lens with 15mm max. wide angle.

The F-stop (1.0 through 1.3) indicates the speed of the lens, as in: how bright the image will be on the screen.
Given the same amount of light, a 1.1 produces a brighter image than a 1.3.

The Elmo 1.1 lens has both advantages: it is faster, for more light on the screen, and it is wider than the standard lens, for a bigger picture.

How big a picture do you need, and how far back can you go?
If you tell me your screen width or the desired width of your image, I can tell you what the 1.1 lens needs in terms of floor space from the screen.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 05:41 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1.0 is absolutely THE TOP. I do believe there's nothing comparable to this wonderful lens, referring to super 8.

Claus' post in more than exhaustive and very accurate. Well done, Claus.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 04, 2010 05:47 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gian, thanks, as long as you didn't mean "exhausting"... [Big Grin]
The 1.0 lens is the king among the Elmo lenses, the fastest of them all, but not easy to come by, and, given what even the 1.1s can go for, definitely not cheap.
The only other competitor in all this is the Schneider 1.1.

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 04, 2010 05:49 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did not, Claus [Big Grin] !

You are definitely right: it's very hard to get this lens. And I agree about the Schneider/Xenovaron 1.1 (found one for 16 euro last summer eh eh eh). I use it/them (I've got more than one) on my Silmas.

One of the latest Elmo 1.0 I've seen for sale on Ebay was sold for more than 500 euro, last year [Eek!] .
But sometimes a little bit of luck can help. I won one on eBay Germany for 100 euro a couple of years ago [Wink] .

Summertime is always the best moment for eBay acutions. Lots of people are on holiday = less contenders.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 04, 2010 08:32 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Claus and Gian... I got the idea.

So when you are talking the 1.1 (or even 1.0) is brighter, does it mean you can get this by increasing the bulb (which is definitively an inexpensive way) rather than buying $100 up for the lens?

OK may be you will discuss about the possibility harm to the transformer. But I can tell you that some one in my home country can make an external transformer for higher bulb wattage.

So what do you think on cost effective between buying faster lens vs increasing wattage?

Secondly any lens made with vocal length start from 10mm? My distance is around 9 feet but I wanted to get very large screen because this is what I always see in the theater [Wink] (again if you are talking a dimmer picture because of bigger projection, I can deal with that).

regards,

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Winbert

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

- posted January 05, 2010 01:02 AM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

Upgrading a lamp compared to changing out a lens (and I am no engineer):

A new lamp, with a new transformer, in a new lamp holder, with (most likely) extra cooling needed; you see where this is going... [Wink]
I am not saying it can't be done, but I have a feeling it's going to be neither cheap nor simple. Even among the enterprising bunch on the boards here, I haven't heard of anyone doing it.

Also, you'd have to calculate how many more watts of lamp power you would need to get an appreciable increase in brightness on the screen.

At 9ft you are not going to get a "big" picture. There simply is no Super-8 projection lens that could cover that short distance and make it big enough for you; at least not one made for the Elmos that I have ever heard of. You'd need a really deep wide-angle lens to make a large picture from 9ft away.

I put up my ST1200 9ft out and measured with the 1.1 lens at the widest setting (12.5mm.) You get an image that is just under 4ft wide. That's it. You need more floor space [Smile]

Claus.

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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 05, 2010 01:46 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I am not saying it can't be done, but I have a feeling it's going to be neither cheap nor simple. Even among the enterprising bunch on the boards here, I haven't heard of anyone doing it.
Thanks Claus, but I can see the difference being live in a developing country (where everything is limited) and in a developed country, like Canada or USA. Here, everything is calculated (ruled) with safety regulations as well as high cost living. Please don't get offended with me. I lived in Indonesia, I lived in Fiji (poorer than Indonesia) and now I am in Canada (one of richest country).

In Indonesia, the engineers work with anything seen in their working area. Are those stuffs save? not necessarily, sometimes is dangerous.

So regarding the upgraded lamp, I have seen some one in Indonesia putting 250watt into Sankyo 700 and nothing wrong happened (at least as far as I know). But I saw they had an external transformer and also using domestic fan to cool the projector. Not a nice seen, but since this was used for outdoor screening for hundreds people....well it's OK (they supposed to use 16mm, but sometimes for short films they used 8mm)

So upgrading the lamp is more inexpensive in Indonesia rather than buying a lens (which obviously cannot be hand-made).

However, I can see your explanation.

BTW (OOT) being from a developing country, when I lived in a less developing country, I got an experience when my eyes were shocked having seen a car was filled with Coconut Oil!!. Well in the Pacific there are plenty of Coconut and sometime they didn't get fuel supply. [Big Grin]

cheers,

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Winbert

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

- posted January 05, 2010 03:10 AM      Profile for Dino Everette     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert quick question...I thought you mentioned you had a short throw which was why you wanted the big picture - won't the short throw coupled with the extra light output of the f1.1 lens take care of any brightness issues?

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 05, 2010 03:30 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dino...no, I don't have any short throw lens.

If you are referring to the other thread (which is also talking about the same issue), I was even asking if any short throw lens was marketed and would like to know the brand and the measure.

cheers,

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Winbert

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 05, 2010 07:42 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Christian, Sorry i cant help you with either of those lenses. I would try the dealers here in the UK such as Derann, Perrys, Foster Films and Classic.
Those dealers quite often have those lenses.

The best Scope lens is the Kowa 8Z. This has a very large rear element and allows use with both 8mm and 16mm and when using very short throws. The Kowa 8Z was also sold as the Elmoscope 16.

Keep an eye on eBay as well as these lenses do turn up on there from time to time. FFR and Wittners in Germany both supply brackets to allow use of the Kowa on most 8mm machines.
Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 05, 2010 12:03 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Kevin.
Once again, it's always a pleasure to read your posts.
Hope it was not a problem to suggest Christian about you. I was quite sure you would have been in a position to help him.
Take care.
[Wink]

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 05, 2010 12:31 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, he provided names, so thanks [Smile]

I found the scope lens in question at Classic Home Cinema, but it was £140, which I can't afford just yet.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 05, 2010 12:34 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Time will get [Wink] ! Sorry it did not help [Frown] . Take a look to my thread about Luigi Petrin's boxes.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 05, 2010 01:30 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have posted my email adress in the thread, Gian [Smile]

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted January 05, 2010 01:33 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well done. Hopefully Luigi will mail you soon.
Ciao.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

- posted January 06, 2010 05:05 AM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ugo has contacted me now, hopefully he can help me out with lenses :-)

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 06, 2010 03:31 PM      Profile for Gary Crawford     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Claus may frown at this solution, but it might be an alternative to a major lens purchase. Years ago, I ran film showings at the Arlington , Va. central library...which has a long throw....and a not huge screen ..they actually had a booth at that time. We were fine with the 16mm machines they had in the booth, but when I needed to run shorts with my Elmo St1200HD, the picture was far too big,even withthe zoom all the way to the smallest setting. I have Kodak Pageant 16mm machines...and I have the little Kodak "bifocal converter". Put it in one way in the lens and it expands the picture...put it in flipped around and you get a much smaller picture. I found that when I took the converter out of it's little sleeve( it simples screws in or out) I could place it right inside the lens of the Elmo..a perfect fit. it brought the picture down to fit the screen. These converters sometimes show up on Ebay and are very handy, if not the greatest optics in the world. I'm pretty sure one would also fit in the lens of the 180.

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