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Author Topic: The truth about Vinegar Sydrome!
Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 08, 2009 01:23 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any acetate film can get VS. This can include LPP or indeed any stock.

Only Mylar prints are immune.

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John W. Black
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 536
From: Deptford,N.J.
Registered: Mar 2008


 - posted September 12, 2009 01:34 AM      Profile for John W. Black   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Storing film in cans in a humid room will hasten VS. And despite claims of some,it cannot be cured,only treated to slow the process.Kodak tried to come up with a solution in the 70s and gave up.

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Beat em or burn em,they go up pretty quick

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
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 - posted September 12, 2009 05:14 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bin em or burn em !!!

Best Mark.

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted September 16, 2009 01:54 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I tossed a 16mm feature last week; the VS smell was so strong it nearly made you pass out when i openned the plastic can. The layers of film were also stuck together. It had been completely sealed for years.

It had come from Queensland, a northern Australian state; think Florida and add some more heat and humidity!

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2009 09:31 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What about the MGM titles that came in the black plastic hinged cases or the Universal-8 plastic cases? Do these promote v/s?

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2009 10:18 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

I've had films in both the MGM and Universal 8 clamshells come down with VS. The films need some air. Keep 'em cracked open a bit.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 08, 2009 10:47 PM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Both parts of "A Night At The Opera" have a sort of soury aroma. Not horrible, but it's definitely there.

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Vangelis Lympouridis
Film Handler

Posts: 31
From: Los Angeles, CA, US
Registered: Sep 2009


 - posted November 10, 2009 10:12 AM      Profile for Vangelis Lympouridis   Author's Homepage   Email Vangelis Lympouridis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am confused...and I smell vinegar at most of my films too...
Do doth B&W and Colour films suffer from VS first of all?
I bought 6 films that arrived today and I smell them again and again trying to realize if they smell vinegar or it is simply an old grandpa's closet smell...
It gets even more confusing since one of the reels has a gentle perfume aroma...
Doctor, is it me or my films???

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V~

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 11, 2009 11:21 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
First, any estar/mylar film will not have the VS smell.

Second many if not most sound striped prints will have an "aroma" about them. That is not VS.

Open a bottle of your best punget vinegar and take a whiff (it'll probably really be strong)--that's what you're looking for.

Most 8mm films that have been stored "in the open" don't suffer from this, rarely Kodachrome which was diacetate will have the problem.

Remember the smell is the first stage, then sticky or the film is curly and hard to hold flat and focus. If you find a reel or two, store them in a different location.

John

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted November 11, 2009 02:56 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, can you tell us more about Kodachrome being diacetate? Didn't Kodachrome change to triacetate at some point? And why would Kodak make a diacetate film when everything else is/was the other (until Estar)? TIA

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 12, 2009 09:25 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
I really would have to go back and do some research. Kodachrome was a very early color product but I don't think that was the reason of the different base. They probably did change at some point, but there was a reason that the camera films were on that support. The print films (Kodachrome Print 5269 and Eastman Reversal Color Print 7387) were on triacetate.

John

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
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 - posted November 12, 2009 11:07 AM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So those of us who shot Kodachrome in the 70s and 80s were probably dealing with Triacetate? Let alone the latest stock?

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted November 12, 2009 06:29 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 


[ November 13, 2009, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

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Adrian Winchester

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 13, 2009 10:03 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
This is from a fifty cent Kodak book "Storage and Preservation of Motion Picture Film" This is the early blue cover edition, I have a later one somewhere but the following will be of interest to some:

"The base of support of acetate motion picture film, which is approximately .0055 inch in thickness is usually made from cotton or wood cellulose by chemical treatment which coverts it into a plstic. In former years, most motion picture film support was of the highly flammable, cellulose nitrate type. The only "safety" or slow-buring films up to about 1938 were made from acetone=soluble cellulose acetate. These were followed by the cellulose acetate propionate and acetate butyrate types. In spite of the hazardous nature of nitrate film and the safety precautions which were necessary in the handling and storage of this materi, it was preferred over the early types of acetate film for commercial 35mm use because of its superior physical characteristics.
In recent years, an improved safety support made of high acetyl cellulose acetate (commonly called "cellulose triacetate") has been developed and this new safety support is fully suited to the rigid requirements of commercial motion picture use. As a result, the Eastman Kodak Company has not manufactured any nitrate film in the United States since 1951.
Although virtually all Eastman 35mm motion picture filmas as well as 16mm black and white motion picture films are now made on triacetate support, Kodachrome Film is currently made on cellulose acetate propionate support. Kodachrome andEastman Color Films were never made on nitrate base, but imbibition color print and various two-color print stocks were made on nitrate film for a number of years prior to 1951.

The current Kodachrome spec sheet makes no metion of film support.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e55/e55.pdf

The current Care and Storage publication is now 12 pages and is here:
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30.pdf

There is a Kodak Publication, which I could not find on line: "The Book of Film Care" publication H-23.

The publication quoted has no copyright date, but the back page has a code 3-57 and I would guess that's the revision date of the book.

John

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Vangelis Lympouridis
Film Handler

Posts: 31
From: Los Angeles, CA, US
Registered: Sep 2009


 - posted November 13, 2009 12:53 PM      Profile for Vangelis Lympouridis   Author's Homepage   Email Vangelis Lympouridis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello,

Excuse me if that is irrelevant but should a film be firm on its reel or quite relaxed? Sometimes I use a microfibre cloth while I rewind the reel so to clean it off from dust but that causes the film to be a bit firmer than usual back on its reel. Does it mean that it cannot breathe properly? Any possible connection to VS there?
Thanks
Vangelis

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V~

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
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 - posted November 13, 2009 03:02 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
An interesting point that hasn't been directly addressed. However, since the major Hollywood Vaults are now storing film horizontally in film containers that allow air circulation, I wonder if a more "relaxed" wind might not be better.

Remember, however, that most negative and sound tracks are stored on cores, tails out wound with a tite-wind. So perhaps it's not a critical issue, but an interesting point. Also most of the work has been done on 35mm film and narrower gauges would not be as adversly effected.

I most transcribe some of the research notes on testing acetate film base circa 1948-1950 and the published results. One of the problems with the research is it was all done with elevated temperatures and concerned itself with film brittleness--a previous problem with film support. Hence no one considered the problem of breakdown with moisure, but certain problems with fumes were addressed and problem with certain air conditions in areas with heavy coal burning industries.

In all a fascinating study considering what we learned fifty years later.

John

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted December 14, 2009 10:00 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a note or two on a very interesting subject... Vitafilm, while a good product similar to Film Renew, is most definitely NOT a cure or even a treatment for VS. I did an experiment with it on beautiful print of a great B+W episode of Gunsmoke I had that was turning VS. I soaked the film completely submerged in Vitafilm for 6 months. It projected fine right after that. I stored it in a loose can so it could breath for about 1 year. I was horrified to discover last month that the film had completely warped into being unable to project status and the stench was incredible. Sad to see it go...

The other thing is that after all the years I have owned (never a large collection) of S-8mm and R-8mm prints, I have never had a VS print. 16mm several...

I personally think that if a film is not VS, then storing in a can is no problem. Only once it starts going it needs to keep the fumes away so as not to accelerate the process. Just my 2 cents. I had some 16mm color and B+W original home movies I shot that had been stored in taped up cans for 30 years without problem. They were as fresh and pliable as the day they went in.

--------------------
Live Free or Die

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted December 16, 2009 10:18 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do film transfer work and see a lot of old film. Almost every reel of VS film which comes my way has been stored in a tightly sealed can. While every film which has been stored in a can may not turn vinegar, almost every film which is vinegared has been in a can, in my experience.

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John Hermes

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted December 30, 2009 07:04 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just took my 16mm print of "Dawn Patrol" with Errol Flynn out with the trash. VS overcame this print even though I treated it with full submersion in Vitafilm for 3 months. After I took it out I thought the treatment had done a lot of good. Stored on open reels but only 6 months later what was a print starting to smell turned into a warped vile mess unable to be projected. Man that hurts.

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Live Free or Die

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted December 30, 2009 10:34 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David, I'm sorry to hear of your plight. I had an LPP print of "The Bramble Bush" that went VS faster than any I have ever seen. I had to throw it away as well...nothing helped.

--------------------
John Hermes

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 31, 2009 02:56 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David,
Did you try Pete Goed's LFP on the print?

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted January 02, 2010 12:50 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael

No I didn't. I did find out that you now can buy it via Paypal even though the website doesn't list this as a payment type. He is away until January 20, and I plan to order some after that date.
The print was so far gone, mounted on good metal reels the film was so wavy and misshaped, and smelled so horribly strong, I didn't feel it was possible or worth it. I have a few others that could use the LFP treament. Even though it supposedly puts VS film back into a pliable and projectable condition, you have to redo the treatment every few years.

--------------------
Live Free or Die

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 02, 2010 06:46 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I do film transfer work and see a lot of old film. Almost every reel of VS film which comes my way has been stored in a tightly sealed can. While every film which has been stored in a can may not turn vinegar, almost every film which is vinegared has been in a can, in my experience.
This has been precisely my findings as well.

quote:
Did you try Pete Goed's LFP on the print?
There is NO CURE for vinegar syndrome, LFP included.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted January 03, 2010 02:30 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Absolutely correct, Brad - I never suggested LFP could cure VS.

What I have had results with is getting rid of warp and getting a severely warped print back into projectable shape, with LFP.

I suggested that rather than bin the print, as David had to do, LFP my have allowed him to salvage it.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted January 04, 2010 02:48 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A new thought about home movies, VS, and which support the films might be made on. (For the previous post with amazing technical data, see John Whittle's 11/13/2009 10AM post.)

First, a little technical review based on John's post above. The first safety films were not just one chemical approach (cellulose diacetate) but three: acetone-soluble cellulose acetate, cellulose acetate propionate, and acetate butyrate. Then at some point most of it shifted to "high-acetyl cellulose acetate" which we normally refer to as cellulose triacetate.

Any of our studio or Blackhawk prints would be on this base, and when you view light through the side of the reel, have a medium amber color. Some films are lighter or darker than others, but triacetate prints never seem to be opaque, nor as light as mylar/polyester/estar prints, which are quite a bit more transparent through the film base.

Here's the new point. All the Super 8 Kodak stock that I have, from my first roll in the 70s, right up to current Plus-X and 64T rolls (sorry, have never shot negative) and recent Kodachrome, are opaque. Even with a bright light, almost no light gets through its side. Lest you think this happens because of different emulsion properties, this is still true even when the emulsion is removed with bleach. With no emulsion, it still is nearly opaque.

So at this point I would propose the radical opinion that ALL Kodak 8mm camera film is on diacetate TO THIS DAY. based on the fact that it looks like no other film through the side. Is diacetate less prone to VS than triacetate? I can't tell, but 100-year-old Edison films have turned up on eBay in projectable condition. However, I've seen old Kodachrome with VS.

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