8mm Forum: Cans vs. No cans

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Topic: Cans vs. No cans

Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 06, 2017 10:10 AM

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I have bins of open reels stored upright. I always clean both the projector and the print(s) prior to screening. Any reason I should lay out tins of money for vented cans or am I good? The film are stored in a clean cool environment (No... Not the garage - LOL).

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 128
From: West Milford, NJ
Registered: Jun 2008

posted February 06, 2017 03:16 PM

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Unless you go for archival cans, which allow the film to vent, or molecular sieves in sealed cans to absorb any off gassing from acetate film, I am of the school of thought that no can is better than a sealed can. I can always clean dust off the print, but nobody can reverse vinegar syndrome.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 07, 2017 02:27 AM

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Brad
Whatever method you use it is important to store films horizontally, not vertically. This is to distribute the weight evenly.

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Maurice

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015

posted February 07, 2017 07:04 AM

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Mitchell, I didn't think storage in a can contributed to the Vinegar syndrome. All mine are in airtight cans and have been for years and, so far, only one is showing signs of VS. I understood it was the result of either a manufacturing or processing defect. Am I wrong?

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Dave

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 07, 2017 07:39 AM

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The experts tell us that once the chemical reaction that produces VS begins, having the film totally enclosed in an airtight container increases the speed of the reaction...more gas, causing more reaction, causing more gas. And the cycle goes on. They tell me that allowing the film to breathe releases some of the gas and slows down the degeneration. And if the film is in a vented can, the sieves can absorb some of the gas more easily and slow down the process even more. I realize there is still debate about this, but that seems to be the consensus. Also, films vary in their susceptibility of vinegar based on the film base and on the quality of processing work done to produce them. Some may never get it, others seem to get it quick and fast. They say also that temperature and humidity are both factors affecting VS. In many chemical reactions , the warmer it is, the faster and stronger the reaction. There awre so many variables, it boggles my mind. So that's my BS about VS.

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015

posted February 07, 2017 02:37 PM

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Thanks Gary. Sounds as if it's all in the lap of the gods.

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Dave

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Mitchell Dvoskin
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 128
From: West Milford, NJ
Registered: Jun 2008

posted February 07, 2017 02:39 PM

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What Gary said.

Sealed cans do not cause VS, but once it starts, trapping the acetic gasses in the can greatly accelerate the process.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 07, 2017 08:12 PM

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It's widely believed that polyester print can't get VS, so if - like me - you're struggling to decide whether to go on keeping some films in non-archival cans, you could at least put any polyester prints you own in them!

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Adrian Winchester

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 07, 2017 08:16 PM

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It's not wildly believed, it's a fact of chemistry Adrian.

Partly why it was created as a medium for film in the first instance.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Clinton Hunt
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: Waharoa,North Island,New Zealand
Registered: May 2010

posted February 07, 2017 09:29 PM

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I am by no means an expert but this is what I do ....
All my 16mm prints are stored horizontally,
Some are in their original cardboard boxes (400ft and less)
Most are in cans and the ones that have no cans or boxes are in a storage container with a lid to stop the dust getting on them and stored under my bed [Smile]

[Smile]

Seems to work for me considering I don't have a temp controlled room or a room just for my films [Smile]

[Smile]

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Cheers from me in New Zealand :-)

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted February 26, 2017 05:32 PM

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I would recommend cans for storage.
However if you have to use cardboard make sure its of "archival"
quality.
Cheap nasty cardboard will dry out your prints over time.

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted February 26, 2017 07:15 PM

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David...I've heard about the not using regular cardboard boxes (like shipping boxes) for storage. You say it dries out the film. Why is this? What's in the cardboard of shipping boxes that makes it not suitable. All cardboard looks the same to me.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 26, 2017 09:09 PM

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There's an opposite school of thought here, namely that film storage in sealed or tightly fitting cans is the worst way to store films. The reason being that the films must be allowed to breathe, to avoid build up of decomposition gases from cellulose acetate.
I don't know if there is any truth in this, but 3 years ago I went through an estate collection of 8mm and super 8mm films, and most of the films in metal cans had VS, and most of the films in cardboard boxes did not.
Sine then I have stored all my films in card boxes.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted February 27, 2017 11:40 AM

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I store my films in corrugated cardboard boxes and in plastic cans. I have either archival plastic cans or I have drilled holes in them to let in air. I'd like to know why shipping box cardboard dries out the film? What's in the cardboard that reacts to the film? Are there any other potential problems with using these boxes?

Also...if shipping boxes are bad ... What cardboard is good? Where can you buy these boxes for 16mm prints?

I recently received a film from Denmark. The two reels came in cardboard boxes (not corrugated). The cardboard is more like what some of my 8mm films are in. There is a flap on one end.

I haven't had any issues with either the shipping boxes or the plastic cans....but them I haven't been collecting that long.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012

posted February 27, 2017 02:24 PM

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Janice. Those card boxes are the same as most of my 16mm films came in. The film libraries used them. When Derann and the other companies had 8mm hire the films I hired came in a similar box, but held 4x400ft films.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted February 27, 2017 02:51 PM

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David are you referring to the two boxes in the second picture? Are these boxes better for storing film? Why...and are these still available anywhere?

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted February 27, 2017 05:23 PM

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Janice its important to make sure the cardboard is made out
of acid free cardboard and is pH neutral and lignin free.
There can also be alkaline in cheap cardboards and papers.
Corrugated cardboard is one example.

Cheap cardboards can chemically react with film and dry it out over time.
Lignin is what cause cheap newspaper to yellow over time.

The fact that film libraries used the boxes shown in your photos
is no guarantee that these boxes are acid free.
These were merely used for sending out prints.
We used to get our film trailers and adverts in such boxes.

You might have to shop around the internet for suppliers of
archival acid free cardboard boxes.

Acid free cardboard is whats used for comic backing boards and storage boxes.

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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