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Author Topic: From 8 mm to DVD
Kobus Kortmann
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Helmond NL
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted July 30, 2007 05:32 AM      Profile for Kobus Kortmann   Email Kobus Kortmann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am working to transfer my old family movies to dvd and I like to come in touch with others to excange experiences and getting together an excellent result.
I know a little bit about, who knows more???
Kobus

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 30, 2007 06:41 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I shall be looking at this post as i have had very little success even though i use a good programm, videostudio 10, i dony unfortunatly have the correct projeting mirrors etc

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Dave Alligan
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Suffolk
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted July 30, 2007 08:17 AM      Profile for Dave Alligan   Email Dave Alligan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You need a good cine to video transferer, I use a Hama which gives me good results plus as well you need to have a camcorder which lets you alter the shutter speeds, you need to have a very fast shutter speed to elimate the flicker from the projector.

Videostudio 10 is ok to use as your video editing software but the best to use is Adobe Premier with Adobe Encore to make the discs.

If you need any more help or advice please just ask and I will help if possible.

Dave

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Kobus Kortmann
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Helmond NL
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted July 30, 2007 12:04 PM      Profile for Kobus Kortmann   Email Kobus Kortmann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed I also use Hama Telescreen Video but am not content with focusing.
How do you plave the projector; close of as far as possible. Same question for the cancorder?
Actual I use a Canon UC 2000, but it flickers a little. I have also a DV Canon MVX 3i, but that stops after 5 minutes!!!
In my cupboard is also a Canon E 700, but I didn.t try it yet.
I changed my guestroom into a "studio" so my Elisabeth (the first) presses me to hurry a while.
On the other hand the weather gives me a hand to stay inside.
I did use VideoStudio 6, but just bougt an update for 11plus

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 31, 2007 02:24 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Assuming you're connecting the camcorder to the computer using firewire or ordinary video card, try this to stop the it automatically shutting off... stick a write-protected DV tape in the camera. Ignore any warnings and tell it to start taping. It should sit there forever trying to warn you that it's not taping.

I have one of those Hama video transfer thingies. It's just a toy version of a multiplexer really so you don't stand much of a chance. I suspect it would be better to just video the films off the wall so that may be worth a try. Whatever you do the projector will have to be locked in to 16.66 fps or 25fps to (dependent on a 2 bladed or 3 bladed shutter in the projector) to eliminate flicker.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Dave Alligan
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Suffolk
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted July 31, 2007 03:41 AM      Profile for Dave Alligan   Email Dave Alligan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Kobus

You need to have your hard drive reformatted to NTFS this will stop your camcorder stopping after five minutes.

You need to have yoir camcorder on a fast shutter speed to eliminate flicker from your projector, regardless of what you have the projector set at.

I do this for a living so I know what I am talking about.

Dave

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 31, 2007 06:25 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You need to have your hard drive reformatted to NTFS this will stop your camcorder stopping after five minutes.
Sorry, but this is nonsense! The PC's harddrive has got nothing do with the camera's "auto power off"-feature! You'll either have to turn off the camera's "auto power off" in the camera's settings - or by inserting a tape. When the tape doesn't do the trick, you'll have to set the camera to "record".

When it's your PC that stops: Upgrade your Software. Older software might not be able to handle files larger than 1GB, 2 GB or 4GB. (5min in DV-codec = approx. 1 GB)
When your harddisk is formatted in FAT16 the max. file-size is 2GB independent of your software. When using FAT32 (default for Win95, 98, ME) the max. file-size is 4GB. The 4GB-limit also affects older versions of the MacOS. NTFS (default for WinNT, Win2000, WinXP, WinVista) or the file-systems used by Linux or newer versions of MacOS don't have such a max. file-size.

Jörg

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Dave Alligan
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Suffolk
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted July 31, 2007 07:14 AM      Profile for Dave Alligan   Email Dave Alligan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg

Sorry you are talking nonsense.
Perhaps you have not heard of that if the file reaches its max limit set in either Fat32 or Fat16 it switches the camcorder off if connected with firewire, or did you not know that.

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 31, 2007 07:34 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Perhaps you have not heard of that if the file reaches its max limit set in either Fat32 or Fat16 it switches the camcorder off if connected with firewire, or did you not know that.
Yes, I know that. That's why I've included the max. file sizes in my postings.
BUT:
* The default value for the camera's "auto power off"-feature is 5min for 90% of all DV-cameras. And in most of those cameras the "auto power off"-feature turns the camera off even though the camera is currently connected to the computer: http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17381
* After 5min the max. file-size for FAT16/32 isn't reached sinze it takes at approx. 10min to get a 2GB file! So when a file-size-limit is reached is reached after 5min, this limit is due to the video-editing-software and not to the file system.

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Dave Alligan
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Suffolk
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted July 31, 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for Dave Alligan   Email Dave Alligan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg

Obviousely you must be an expert and me who does this for a living knows nothing so I will leave it up to you now and I will not bother posting anymore.

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Kobus Kortmann
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Helmond NL
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted July 31, 2007 02:19 PM      Profile for Kobus Kortmann   Email Kobus Kortmann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@John Clancy. If I project my film on the wall, on a projection screen, what should be the minimal reflection value of that screen?

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 01, 2007 04:34 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It shouldn't matter too much Kobus as the video camera will handle the exposure. Just do a test by pointing the camcorder at it and recording a section. You may find the results are satisfactory for your own purposes.

Believe it or not there are some firms out there who offer video transfer services who just video the films off the wall. They seem to get away with it so have a go and see what you think. The projector will still have to be set to 16.66fps or 25fps (dependent on 2 or 3 bladed shutter) to eliminate the flicker effect. Let me know if you have any trouble with that side of it.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted August 01, 2007 06:08 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Obviousely you must be an expert and me who does this for a living knows nothing so I will leave it up to you now and I will not bother posting anymore.
... so why does his Canon MVX 3i stop while he's not having any problems with his Canon UC 2000? Even though the UC 2000 can only be attached to the PC's video-in via some cinch- or s-vhs-cables (and hence can't be stopped from the PC), at least his "video recording software" should stop after the same 5min if the file has reached a maximum size or if the harddisk is full?!

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted August 09, 2007 02:22 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I´m with John Clancy on this one -you can get very good quality simply filming front-projected footage. [Smile]
I find the following works very well: project your footage with a two-blade-shutter GS 1200 set to either "roughly" 16,7 or 25 fps (I find it runs so evenly that you don´t need chrystal control to eliminate flicker). Chrystal controlled 25 fps however is essential if you need every frame of film to correspond to one "frame" of video.
Use either a good quality plastic screen material (no visible structure) or plain white paper and be sure to set your projector DEAD 90 degrees to the screen. Next place your video camera behind and as close as you can get to the GS, for minimum keystoning of image.
I find 1/50 shutter speed, or a "slow speed" if the camera has that, works best. Use the best quality video camera you can get your hands on.
You can get results that intecut well with professionally scanned (to the tune of $500 per hour) material. [Smile]
Best wishes,
Lars

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted August 09, 2007 06:15 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is good information,
but what should I do here in the USA?
NTSC runs at 29 fps?, and the
projector runs at 24fps.

[Confused]

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted August 10, 2007 01:14 AM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad Miller had good tips on how to do do-it-yourself transfers in the US, why not search for that earlier thread or contact Brad directly?

best wishes,
Lars

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2007 02:07 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Setup the projector next to the videocamera so they are as close together as possible (the videocamera being on the non-operator side of the projector). I usually set the videocamera just above and to the left so that the reels *almost* get in the picture.

Zoom the image as small as you can and shoot from a good distance. This will help you buy some depth of focus in your lens as well as virtually eliminate keystoning.

Shoot onto a piece of white formica. Seriously, this works amazing.

Use a 24P DV videocamera, such as the Panasonic DVX-100. These can be had quite cheap these days and work magnificently (it's what I use).

Record in 24PA (advance pull down mode) so you can author your DVDs at a true 24FPS later without the extra duplicated frames.

Set the videocamera's shutter speed as high as you can. You will notice strobing on the viewfinder. Adjust the fine speed adjustment on your projector very carefully until you have eliminated this. Warning - some projectors will vary their speed a little bit as the takeup reel gets fuller!

Now lower your videocamera's shutter speed, because at a high shutter speed you will have poor results because the camera will be capturing the shutter blades. I usually turn it down to 1/48 to guarantee that I don't accidentally pick up 2 frames of film into one video frame, but any higher and you risk capturing the spinning shutter. Also the lower your shutter speed is, the less chance your videocamera has to compensate by turning up the gain which increases grain...this is also why you want to project to a small image shot at least 15 feet away, so you can maximise the amount of light your projector puts out.

If you find yourself getting a hot spot in the middle of the picture with dark corners, make yourself a diopter to sit in front of the lens. This can be as simple as a small round object dangled in front of the lens (close to the lens) that is blocking the middle of your projected image. (Ideally this is done between the lamp and film gate, but if you get it small enough you can do it in front of the lens. Alternatively you can put a very small dot on a piece of glass and experiment with the glass' placement in front of the lens to eliminate the hot spot.)

Remember to record 10 seconds of nothing before the first frame of "film to save" hits the screen! DV cameras usually need 5 seconds of solid timecode before you can start capturing the footage into some non-linear editing programs, and it's always a good idea never to use the first few seconds of a tape anyway.

Also note that a 2 bladed shutter works best for 24FPS footage!

If you need to transfer 18FPS, the ideal solution is to transfer it at 24FPS using a 24P camera as I detailed above and then slow it down to 18FPS in a non-linear editing program such as Adobe Premiere. The end result will be EXACTLY 18FPS transfer and very smooth. Your other option is to transfer at 20FPS and shoot at a normal video framerate of 30FPS, which looks bad.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted August 11, 2007 10:49 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,

Thank you for the detailed information
regarding film transfers. Can sound films
use this method too?

If I have an 8mm projector that is
not variable and set at
16 or 18 fps, how do I get around this?

Also check out this site below.

Are you familiar with this organization?
What do you think of it?
Otherwise it is expensive
and I do not know how sound
films can be transferred also?

DV Work printer at Movie Stuff

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2007 02:01 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If I have an 8mm projector that is
not variable and set at
16 or 18 fps, how do I get around this?

That's simple. You buy a new projector with variable speed. [Big Grin] (Sorry, but that's the only solution, otherwise you WILL have a flicker regardless of the video equipment you use.)

Regarding that site, my parents used to have a Montgomery Ward dual 8 projector that was EXACTLY LIKE THE ONE PICTURED! It had no sprockets and relied on the single perforation claw to pull it through the machine. The film just dragged across a plastic raceway inside and scratched the hell out of everything we ever ran through it, including many digests I bought brand new. They would have noticeable scratching almost immediately. Stupidest projector design ever.

By the way, is this first picture showing a light dimmer being used as a motor speed control???

These guys seem to have a good idea, but I would avoid them at all costs based upon what I saw happen to my parent's home movies on that same sprocketless projector.

As far as sound goes, just tie into your headphone jack. Do note you will need a line in jack, not a microphone in jack. In the case of the DVX-100, you will have to run the volume extremely low or ideally run it through an attenuator. I think Radio Shack still makes them.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2007 02:19 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But Brad, this CineMate unit is a bargain at only $1195.00, and not only that " The sprocketless drive protects your customers' films from the potential damage typically found on other sprocket driven projectors and transfer devices".

What a rip off!

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted August 12, 2007 01:46 AM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Micheal, Brad´s suggestion you buy a projector with variable speed may be your best bet. If you can find an Elmo GS 1200 (sometimes they turn up in mechanically fine, but cosmetically terrible condition, and can be had relatively cheap), equip it with a 2-blade shutter (Wittner´s is good quality) and slave it to a 24 fps chrystal device (search for threads on Pedros boxes), you will have flicker free, perfect sound (to/from DVD, VHS, etc) transfers.
With some care, your transfers will be as good as most people would ask for, the next level being laborious and complicated ways of actually capturing images in the projector´s gate.

Best Wishes,
Lars

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Kobus Kortmann
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Helmond NL
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted August 12, 2007 07:17 AM      Profile for Kobus Kortmann   Email Kobus Kortmann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some info about how I am doing now: I use the Canon MVX3i on the Tv mode with a speed of 25; A blocked tape makes that the camcorder doesn't stop after 5 minutes and the microphone switch on manual together with an extern microphone plugged in, but turned off, makes that the projector sound is not recorded.
My projector is an Heurtier duovox set on 18 as this was the speed that I took my films. I am using the Hama box, as I have not a projection screen available. Results are reasonable, but I still try to improve the focusing and try to find out the best distance between Projector - Hama - Camcorder. All together nice work for this rainy summer.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2007 01:42 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I've found by doing the step above in regards to raising the video camera's shutter to fine tune the speed (then turn the camera's shutter down), a crystal sync unit is unnecessary.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted August 13, 2007 12:09 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am also looking to transfer Standard 8mm film,
so I guess that I would need a proj. with a variable
control.

What I found fascinating about the work printer
is that the projector has a unique method of
clicking the computer to a sync or tone
to pull down the 29 fps to 24 fps.

I wonder if there is something on the
shutter blade that elicits the pulse
to activate the capture to the video
source?

--------------------
Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Kobus Kortmann
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Helmond NL
Registered: Jul 2007


 - posted August 16, 2007 02:25 AM      Profile for Kobus Kortmann   Email Kobus Kortmann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is my "work place". You see the projector, the notebook, the "Hama" and the DV camcorder. Between the Notebook and the Hama my Externe harddisk.

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