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Author Topic: New Section For Digital?
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 04, 2015 04:34 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am, as I nearly always am, with Steve on this one.
He lists just a handful of the links that are available for all things digital,projection very much included.

It's far more difficult for people like Mark I would have thought, to dedicate his digital posts where they are appreciated the most and his knowledge on the subject be reached to a wider audience, as he genuinely has a working interest still to this day in both film and digital projection. So I can perfectly understand why this forum is the perfect place for him still.

For others though, especially those who just appear hell bent on just disrespecting any of the film gauges and its present day users in this era, while waxing lyrical on the benefits and superiority of screening digitally, then I honestly cannot understand what would motivate a person to post here?

This isn't the most technical or knowledgeable arena for digital technology posts as it Simply doesn't have the member numbers that some of the very popular digital AV forums have.

When I was a past user of film and solely a new and enthusiastic user of digital projection and software, never once did I think a film forum would have been the very best place to talk and research all of the latest digital products and releases.

I purchased "What Home Cinema", "Home Cinema Choice", "What Hi Fi & Home Video" etc etc.I then went on either their forums or similar and found thousands of useful posts and links to assist me with my new venture.

We have some truly super knowledgeable guys on here for all things AV be it film or video. People like Rob for instance who has no end of experience and knowledge with both subjects,but ultimately there is a wider audience to be reached than the one that is here by using a dedicated digital forum and without disrespecting those that use this forum for what it was first and foremost primarily intended for.

Surely for those who no longer have any interest or passion for real film, Steve's recommendations and others offer a better service and a more appreciative audience for their interests.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted August 04, 2015 06:49 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like film and I like digital (not for the same reasons, and not usually at the same time). They both have their place and tremendous advantages AND disadvantages. This forum has been a tremendous asset and help to many of us because of the unique hobbyists who "live" here. So I agree with Steve's excellent comments and Doug's decision to not open a new section, although renaming the "General Yak" subheading to specifically state "(including digital video)" might not be a bad idea.

So thank you all for helping make this hobby even better and more fun. And I don't mind the occasional video comment because, let's face it, there are just some things you can't do with film. However, like you, handling and running film is just wonderful and fussy fun. So, when we open our home for friends to join us, the biggest efforts are always for FILM-based nights (I have to borrow or rent to do video, so that's rare) because there are just some great old-time things that don't work as well on video - Laurel & Hardy, Technicolor (wish I could afford more of that), etc. And what's more fun than the group dynamic of enjoying it together?

So thanks for keeping the main thing the main thing, and kudos as always to our host Brad and to Doug for moderating as well.

In this age of all-digital technology, getting others to appreciate our hobby is more important, more unique, and therefore more fun than ever.

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted August 04, 2015 06:51 PM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
With all due respect, I don't see how a handful of digital-related responses in the General Yak section constitutes disrespect -- and I don't see anyone hellbent on disrespecting the film gauges. What I see are some long-time film collectors (which includes me) expanding their screening/projecting options with digital, pure and simple. However, I'm not dumping my Super 8/16 mm films and, in fact, have purchased some Super 8/16mm films just this year.

In my 40-plus of film collecting, I have always strived to obtain the best print and sound quality possible. I'm simply happy that technology has advanced to the point to enable me to achieve that print and sound quality on a consistent basis. (The operative word being "consistent.") Call me crazy, but isn't that ultimately a good thing?

I'm not aware (or can't remember!) what happened five years ago on this forum, but I'd hate to think that the film hobby has become so fragile and/or so insular that something that is ultimately a good thing, like the explosion of available, but optional, screening options (the discussion of which is legitimately confined to the General Yak section) is somehow viewed as anxiety-producing (?).

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 04, 2015 07:21 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
John, I have much respect and regard for all of your postings on here, but just as Dominique pointed out and quoted on here another members comments recently, there has of course been been plenty of disrespectful comments spoken of the Super 8mm guage and film in general on here lately.

Of course there have been statements by individuals on here of the huge advantages of Video over film for projection purposes and as a collecting medium.

If you like, I will trawl through examples of such, but if you honestly think there has been no derogatory comments or disrespect shown recently towards film and it's collectors among all of this digital chat John, then I'm sorry but as Julie Andrews once famously said...
"you can't see beyond the end of your nose" Im afraid.

For me personally, I don't care. As much as my true passion lies with film, I love all quality projected images and appreciate the machines Cine or Digital that can do so.

But for others who don't care one Iota for digital media, then I equally can understand how they would be upset by this obvious apparent disrespect for film and it's collectors, especially on a film forum.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 04, 2015 07:38 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I`m not sure whats happened now John, to have this flurry going on. I`m at a loss.

I`m still in to film as well, but hands up I love the qaulity and choice of digital we now have as well. And the afforablity etc. We all know the pros and cons of both things.

As we keep saying as well, the two go together so well. If anyone wants to do both ?

Having digital also allows you to be a bit more cautious, and longer term film wise keeping away from the various rip off merchants we all come accross in film, rather than jumping compulsively in, to be burned ( again and again ).

All of that sort of thing does far more harm to the film hobby than a few bit of interest non film posts on here.

Also we have to face up to it, that new product in real film is now almost over. CHC are doing well if they break even, even !!! They often don`t.

Last time I bought a new super 8 film was about 4 years ago,only a trailer as well.

Getting a bit restrictive or protectionist is more likely to reduce membership on here.

No one has said dump " your " films and " go " digital or anything like that, or that anyone " must " do digital either.

Its all free choice, and what people fancy, and I think the best thing we can do for the forum is let the whole issue go, be tollerant of whatever anyone wants to say or share or ask about completely.

Laurence Oliver asks in Marathon Man. " Is it safe "

I`m sure it is.

Best Mark.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 04, 2015 07:48 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Film has been over for years Mark (around two years prior to Derann closing).

There is now other ways of viewing modern films in the home perfectly. Everyone is acutely aware of that.

On here the talk of films screened will never ever be about anything after 2010 max I reckon as far as feature films are concerned.

It makes no difference Mark, people like myself will be watching classic films until we're gone.

We get it that there are no alternatives nowadays with new released films than to screen them digitally.

What's this talk over "things have changed over the past 5 years" is about, I do not know?

I've been in and out and back in the film collecting hobby since this was last relevant talk!

Absolutely nothing has changed since then, it had ended then just as it has ended now. So now is the time to enjoy 50 years of work!

[ August 04, 2015, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 04, 2015 08:03 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well that says it really Andrew that things need to be a bit open on here, to keep some interest going, and a decent membership going as well. Or its going to contract.

Maybe some of us who still love film should all write CHC a cheque for £50 or £100 and send it along with thanks.

I keep suggesting we do something bewteen us to be able to offer any newbies an affordbale machine and a few films etc to get them going and no-one seems interested really. Thats OK, just a thought etc.

But films a bit of an insular hobby as well really.

If the forum gets a bit insular as well, who knows.

Best Mark.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 04, 2015 08:09 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Pipe dreams Mark I'm afraid. It ain't gonna happen.
People talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

Each year I know people like Vidar and myself must spend a couple of thousand on film and projectors but sadly we are very much a dying breed.

It would need hundreds like us, and they just aren't out there.

The forum is safe in the immediate I would say, there is more than enough interest still.

BTW I promote to potential new members on here as a FILM forum regularly, since doing so the numbers each calendar month have only ever risen.

Some people want just to renew their 4x4 every two or three years, I just want my 13yr old reliable and a cabinet full of S8 features on the other hand.

You pay's you're money, you take ur choice!

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David C. Lucidi
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Glenolden, PA, USA
Registered: Nov 2013


 - posted August 08, 2015 04:18 PM      Profile for David C. Lucidi   Email David C. Lucidi   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't post here as much as other film forums, but I have to say, it's somewhat ridiculous seeing some of these people posting, and trying to stir up emotions. Making arguments that contain comments like "fear", "very sad", etc., are both immature and somewhat disrespectful to the general basics of what this forum is about.

Last time I checked, it's called 8mm forum, with a sub-division for 16mm and 9.5mm. In other words, FILM. I can 99.9% guarantee that this forum would ALSO welcome 35mm chat, except that their is already a separate forum for that, from the same guy who started this forum (Brad Miller). 95% of this forum consists of discussing things like FILM projector repairs, FILM sales (or wants), FILM restoration (i.e., splicing, replacement footage, repair of torn sprockets, etc.). It also deals with other aspects of FILM usage, such as replacement parts (projectors, reels, lenses, bulbs), etc. ALL of the film-related forums discuss these topics.

Then there is the 'General Yak', which is essentially any topic you want, minus religion and politics. That includes letting those that desire it, bring up the occasional digital discussion/question/comparison, etc.

And now, now a small group complain that is not enough? Oh the humanity, we are suddenly not a 'one size fits all forum' because a handful of members can't get their sub-forum. Perish the thought! How inconsiderate of us to not accommodate your non-film request! Sheesh.

Tell me WHY it is, that because a SMALL handful of people on here want to add a sub-forum about digital projection (and then whine whine WHINE about it when the majority of members, AND moderator, say no)....tell me WHY we have to listen to this nonsense? Don't like what this forum offers? Here's a tip -- LEAVE and find another forum! Steve was kind enough to post 10 other choices. But don't come into a forum that is all about film, AND allows you a 'general' forum for your other discussion needs, and THEN expect that your whining is going to get you your way. As the moderator already said, the answer is no. Constantly posting about how outdated people are, how 'sad' it is, etc. just shows how immature you really are when you don't get your way. Grow up!

You already have a General Yak to post as MUCH as you want about digital topics. If that isn't enough, the log-out button is in the upper left hand corner next to your name. Remember, no one is forcing you to be here...if you don't like the content and the options offered, oh well.

BTW, how many digital forums have separate forums for 8mm, 16mm, and 35mm?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 08, 2015 04:32 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Some excellent points raised there David! Well said Sir.

As said, for followers of both hobbies the general yak does just fine, for people wanting to slag off 50 to over 100 year old technology as it has finally been surpassed by new technologies in the last decade, then why not use one Steve's recommended AV Forums.

There are plenty of like minded individuals there and film lovers on the film forum here don't have to read comments disrespecting their hobby.

As also said, I enjoy all projected formats in the home, but my passion lies only with film.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 08, 2015 04:49 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Amen and Amen, David!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted August 08, 2015 06:28 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frankly reading through this stuff I feel that some are getting a bit carried away with such comments as "disrespectful to this hobby" a bit over the top don't you think? [Roll Eyes]

Disrespectful.....where? I don't see it.

The bottom line its a film forum and Doug has already said "no" to that request. I cant help but feel there has been "fuel" added to the fire which makes things unpleasant.

Anyway I better go before I am accused of being "disrespectful" as well [Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 08, 2015 07:03 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Graham, for me to further explain the comment in depth,would be just going over the same old ground again as has been explained recently.

I gave my reasons and my reasoning for them then.

I highlighted a post from Dominique quoting another members comments towards film v digital as being an example of where the hobby had been disrespected in my view.

It won't be everyone's point of view, but it was a view especially shared by one or two non digital fans on here, myself not being one them.

Hope this fully explains my comment Graham and hopefully this subject can have a line drawn under it now.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted August 09, 2015 12:06 AM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew

This is still the "General Yak" section and folk like you, me and anyone else can still continue to comment if they "wish" providing they keep within the forum rules.

Graham.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted August 09, 2015 03:47 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course the great hope is that digital or video only users will discover this forum and expand into real film aka Cine. If we restrict the video posts we could me missing a trick.

I never used to be in favour of video posts but times they are and have changed somewhat over the last decade or so. The majority of cine users I know have a video projector sat next to cine machines so I would be quite relaxed about the posts rather than a hint of bordering them away.

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted August 09, 2015 04:18 AM      Profile for Mark Silvester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all - well said Lee and Graham,

as has already been stated "general yak" is a great section to post. No one wants to change this forum...so lets all leave it there for goodness sake.It's a hobby.I am now on 2 weeks annual leave. Lets enjoy the summer...I know I am going to.

I have noticed that Vidar has set his own film forum up now with Robert Crewdson and someone else on-board - more choices for everyone I guess.

Have a good Sunday

Mark
Best to all - "tuned out nice again..hee hee!" [Smile]

--------------------
Mark Silvester

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 09, 2015 04:36 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Thats the only sorrowful aspect of this in my opinion.
People like Vidar and Robert were highly valued on here by myself and no doubt many others.

It is always a shame when active users of film decide to leave, what I think we all agree on, is the best forum already.

It isn't something that I personally would have done, but they felt the forum had become overrun with digital talk recently and included digital postings encroaching over into the 8mm section etc.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Silvester
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: England
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted August 09, 2015 04:45 AM      Profile for Mark Silvester     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Andrew

I understand - they may come back.

I think any posts regarding a digital element have been confined in the main to a couple of threads. And they are generally well balanced I think.

I do think there has been - in all, a little bit of an over reaction..it has all been confined to a couple of threads- that is just my opinion.
Time to move on. And like we have said before the subject sections that are there to post on were put there by Brad and Doug not by anyone else. Anyone who makes a digital comment on general yak...does not from what I have seen go and berate someone on a "film thread post" - each relevant to the subject matter.

Have a good Sunday.

[Smile]

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Mark Silvester

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 09, 2015 05:05 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You too Mark thanks and here's hoping! [Wink]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 09, 2015 05:30 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I`m still not getting why there was any issue. But I understand the fear of films decline if you really love it, but then you keep that going yourself.

You go on any forum, even with a fairly narrow interest people talk about allsorts of things. And things that have moved on relating to that as well etc.

People in to old valve radio,s etc for instance, talk about digital radio and modern radios etc. And have both.

People who talked or discussed digital here are all still real filmy like myself, or to a much lesser extent were filmie big time, but still love this forum and have a great fondness for real film.

No-one has swooped in from the outside and knocked cine etc.

Surely from a digital starting point is where we might hope for the odd convert, or part interested party and member here like Max recently.

Nothing can beat the fun of projecting a nice big real film image and the fun of the cin`e machines etc. But like wise sharing a nice big digital image is great fun too.

Maybe the future of film hanging on is people who start digital, and then add a little cine as well.

As has been said the more we discuss, the more people will trip over this forum, and who knows.

Its sad if anyone leaves this great little spot, and I don`t think they needed to, and hope they return or still contribute here too.

There will be other cracking little forums out there too on other things I`m sure, but you`d have to be very lucky to find one for your interest like this one, and so friendly and nice as it is on here too.

Best Mark.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 09, 2015 05:37 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Mark in that we have a nucleus of very decent individuals on here, hence why it is upsetting when some of those people feel this is no longer the place for their needs.

Here's hoping for their swift return!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted August 16, 2015 09:27 AM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh dear Maurice, you do appear to have let the cat amongst the pigeons with your suggestion. It has raised a lot of issues and it saddens me to think that the result is that some members have left the forum. Personally, I have not read any examples of anyone denigrating those of us who still endeavour to collect and use cine projectors. As has been stated by many of us, we have had to embrace digital as there is no longer any other alternative if our hobby of Home cinema is to continue into the future. The bonus of digital is that it allows us to collect and display films that have never been available to us before and at such low prices. Film collecting is no longer the prerogative of the rich. Also, as Lee comments, younger generations are becoming increasingly curious about past formats and the forum can encourage this interest. I agree that there is no place on any part of this forum for comments which criticize or insult users of any format, but I have yet to come across any. I am sure that "General Yak" is the place for any digital inquiries and information. As an old 9.5mm fan, I well remember some of the comments published in Amateur Cine World and Movie Maker magazine letters column, by users of the new Super 8 gauges, how superior it was to 9.5mm and implying that we were out of date and should change to the latest Kodak wonder, often accompanied with other "unkind " comments!! Sadly there are always people like this. Increasingly these days from what I hear about things published on Face book and Twitter. I do hope that those members who have decided to leave will return and continue their valuable contributions. Ken Finch.

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 16, 2015 10:12 AM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all seems a little sad that they have expended so much time and energy rallying against a few non 8mm threads. Surely if they had made an effort and posted a few more cine articles they wouldn't have noticed the "yak". Now they have gone to the trouble of setting up a more restrictive alternative forum which will duplicate & regurgitate everything that has already been done before in an attempt to generate interest. No doubt they will find offence at telling them straight but as the Blues Brothers would say they are on a mission.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted August 16, 2015 12:16 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Mike, don't like having to do this, but I strongly disagree!
Vidar was a regular poster on here and his appreciation of all things "film" is much missed by myself as he now posts less and less on here.

Robert is a veteran in 16mm, if you contemplate Maurice doing the same, then the forum would be a lonely and a far worse off place to visit.

We need to hear more from the people who are the stalwarts of this forum and we all are responsible for keeping them here.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 16, 2015 12:26 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew I'm not knocking anybody but one or two of them seem to have made a mountain out of a molehilll. They are off doing their own thing and good success to them. I am sure they will post when they find a thread of interest to them.

[ August 16, 2015, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Mike Newell ]

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