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Author Topic: The Romance Is Missing
Kilian Henin
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2016


 - posted June 01, 2016 05:00 PM      Profile for Kilian Henin   Email Kilian Henin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, there are many obvious advantages to digital (cost, convenience, etc.) but film has the one important advantage: the image itself. Film (projected) just looks better. Yes it's more expensive and time-consuming, etc. etc. But so what? As a customer in the theatre, all I really care about is the image on the screen. And digital video is just not as good.

I know most customers probably don't care or even notice the difference, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to educate them.

I also don't think that digital has provided more consistently good theatre showings than 35mm. I've been to too many horrible DCP presentations (garish colours, washed-out blacks, digital shadows/artifacts etc.) to accept that there has been any improvement at all.

Not that this debate really matters anymore - digital has won. Cost always wins out over quality. I just hope that commercial film projection survives in some small way for special releases.

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Guy Taylor, Jr.
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Galveston, Texas, U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted June 01, 2016 05:23 PM      Profile for Guy Taylor, Jr.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well said Kilian and welcome to the forum.

--------------------
Guy Taylor

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted June 02, 2016 05:12 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many projectionists have lost their jobs since the change to digital. Anybody who can handle a computer drag and drop can now make up a programme. And there's no longer any need for anybody to be on duty in the projection room.

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Maurice

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Kilian Henin
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2016


 - posted June 02, 2016 09:25 AM      Profile for Kilian Henin   Email Kilian Henin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Guy. It's a great forum.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 02, 2016 11:54 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, welcome Killian!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted June 02, 2016 05:57 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Killian,

My guess is that for some time to come there will be cinemas/movie theaters that specialize in film projection. Events like the Hateful Eight Roadshow, where newly released mass market movies are projected on film, will quickly become a thing of the past however. Not many filmmakers have that kind of power and increasingly few would want to do it anyway.

As far as whether digital images are better or worse I think is very subjective at this point. There are certain things that in my opinion look better on film. I believe you are right when you say that the public at large doesn't notice or care. To the extent that they do, I'm sure plenty would argue that digital images are better. And over time, the ability for digital images to be made to look like film (or anything else) will only improve.

All that being said, I'm hopeful that there will still be a future for film. I'm also a sailor. Sails as a means for propulsion for commercial vessels have pretty much disappeared, but sailing as a pastime has not and technical advances continue to be made. No one would argue that there's more romance in a diesel engine than a finely cut sail.

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Kilian Henin
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2016


 - posted June 03, 2016 11:21 AM      Profile for Kilian Henin   Email Kilian Henin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Tom, great points. Sailing is a good analogy, and if film survives in a similar capacity, I'd be totally happy. The problem is that many seem to think that digital is a natural progression and that there is no need for film anymore.

And you're completely right: the quality of film vs. digital is subjective. And if people genuinely prefer the look of digital (maybe because of its sharper edges or exaggerated detail) then all the power to them. But there's no denying how different the two formats look. In my opinion, DCP doesn't even come close--I don't think that anyone who's seen the Hateful 8 in 70mm or Interstellar in 15/70 could argue otherwise. Of course, Nolan and Tarantino are purists (they didn't even use DIs) but even an average 35mm print looks excellent.

But as you said, it's subjective. It's an argument that can't be won or lost. I only keep doing it because of those that think that digital has already *won* the debate.

Anyways, I just hope that the two formats can coexist. Son of Saul, Too Late, and Angels & Outlaws are three recent examples of movies with younger directors who insisted on film prints. So there is some hope I guess.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 03, 2016 11:57 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are Kodak Kodachrome films constantly popping up on ebay from the late 1930's still with vintage color ...

Lets see that happen with digital files, after existing for 80 years, and I might well be impressed.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kilian Henin
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Registered: May 2016


 - posted June 03, 2016 12:40 PM      Profile for Kilian Henin   Email Kilian Henin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Osi, that is so true. There is still no way to actually archive anything digitally. Even tech companies back everything up with magnetic tape! I'm sure the studios are keeping a print of every movie they release. They'd be nuts not to.

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted June 03, 2016 12:41 PM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am now totally confused about the way this topic has moved!!
At the end of the day people who put their "Moviing snapshots" up on the media are not making a film and do not consider themselves as "film makers". The like responses do not really mean anything other than they liked what they saw. As an amateur film maker who shot his first cine film at the age of twelve on the poor mans gauge (9.5mm) and now use video, the only real difference between the two media is that cine film required more technical skills to get a decent image. The "art" and "grammar" of film making remain the same. Perhaps it can be compared to writing a story using pen and paper and writing it on a computer using a "spell checker". Not the American version!! Is screening a film loaded on a manual threaded projector more "romantic" than one loaded on an auto threaded one? It could be argued that manual threading requires more skill in some respects but the results on the screen are the same. The romanticism is in the way it is displayed not the technology used to display it. Ken Finch.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted June 03, 2016 12:55 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The romance is definitly missing for me with digital. When I go to the "cinema" (if it can still be called so), the magic feeling is no longer there. The only reason why I still go there is that I have a monthly pass (I don't know if you have that in your country), otherwise I would more than probably not pay to Watch a video projection. Everyone will have his own opinion about that, that's mine.

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Dominique

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted June 03, 2016 01:05 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Archiving is an interesting issue and it's kind of what got me to this forum. My older brother and I have been worried about the state of our parents' 8mm home movies and had been thinking about the best method to digitize them that wouldn't cost a fortune. Ironically, he had transferred them all to VHS video tape maybe 10 to 15 years ago and sent copies of some of them to each of my brothers and I.

Of course VHS as format is now dead, plus the copies were never that great and are only getting worse. Meanwhile the original films are still intact and probably look as good now as the day he made those VHS copies. And while I have been worrying about those 8 mm films, I have video on 8mm tape that's even less convenient to display and probably more in danger of becoming unplayable than the 8mm film which is 3 decades older.

Digital technology and cloud services have the potential to improve archiving (multiple copies, offsite storage) but it's something that requires vigilance. Your grandkids aren't as likely to accidentally discover your old home video on some cloud service as they would be to find some films kept in a box in a closet.

Romance:

There's no doubt that the experience of going to a movie has changed a great deal over the decades. The switch from analog to digital projection is just one of those changes and though some people definitely noticed, I'm guessing that the bulk of the movie going public really didn't.

[ June 03, 2016, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Tom Spielman ]

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William Olson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Poughkeepsie, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2010


 - posted June 04, 2016 09:35 AM      Profile for William Olson   Email William Olson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! I started this topic but never realized I'd opened a Pandora's Box. Lots of interesting comments and observations. I'm not against innovative technologies but I'd like to see them co-exist with older established technology. When CD's came along, people thought I was crazy to keep my turntable and all my records. I like CD's but I like records, too. So, I kept everything. Now, people are discovering and rediscovering records. For me they never left. They are on my shelf side by side with my CD's and I play both formats regularly. For me, it's the same with film and digital video.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted June 04, 2016 10:12 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Me too William. You can't beat the feel of vinyl and analogue in general, coupled with convenience and ease of use of what today's digital tech's bring to the table.

Vinyl, celluloid, CD, DVD, Blu Ray, Vob files,MP4 etc etc etc...
I love em all and use em all! Often, one for another!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted June 04, 2016 10:26 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are CDs finished? I have just ordered a new car. No CD player. The salesman says that CDs are old hat, people now have iTunes and the like on their phones.

My car has a 7" coloured touch screen and will link directly to my iPhone, either Blue Tooth or by cable. The latter is preferred as the phone will keep charged whilst connected with a cable.

Most of the icons on my phone will appear on the car's touch screen via Apple CarPlay. The many controls on the steering wheel will also control some functions. By using Siri Eyes Free I can actually talk to my car. The IntelliLink system can even read emails and text messages out loud.

The car? A Vauxhall (Opel) Corsa.

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Maurice

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted June 04, 2016 11:25 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
AHHHHH ....

But you literally need a college degree to work on you're car these days. I saw a Judge judy case where a car repair shop was being sued over faulty work, and it dealt with an issue as to whether, if you put a new motor in a modern car, will it be compatible with the computer system in the car and if not, the car won't run.

Give me an old hunk O junk car anyday of the week that I can actually work on and keep running just fine!

(OK, I'll admit, this is way off topic now) [Roll Eyes]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 04, 2016 12:50 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Osi, cars should not be 60mph entertainment systems. All this electronic junk on modern cars is the reason so many people are driving off the road, or head on into another car. Happens every day here in Florida, but is always reported as ' for no apparent reason the car suddenly swerved into oncoming traffic'.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted June 04, 2016 01:33 PM      Profile for Dave Groves     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having followed the discussion, I looked back again to see what William had written. He seemed to miss the specialty ('the romance') attached to the whole film process. The fact that anyone with a suitable 'gaget' can make a film opens the door to mass mediocrity. But it also opens the door to a creativity that no longer depends upon expensive equipment and a crew and food van! The vast majority of us used to go to the Cinema to watch others make what we couldn't. Perhaps that's what made it so 'romantic'. But now (if we want to) we can indulge ourselves, and what's become available and achievable and possible has become ordinary. When my Uncle and my Dad bought an Austin 7 shared between them, the occasional outing was savoured because it was special. When Dad got a car of his own the magic disappeared. Perhaps that's the way of things.

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Dave

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

Posts: 339
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Apr 2016


 - posted June 04, 2016 02:45 PM      Profile for Tom Spielman   Email Tom Spielman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I could ramble on about this subject for quite a while and have already posted a couple of times. I'm in my 50's now. I've gotten to the point in my life where I'm not sure if it's a curse or blessing that I can so readily look at movies or images of younger versions of myself and my family. [Smile]

It may not be so easy to put it to words but yes, I do believe that something is lost when you compare film and the process of creating it vs digital. On the other hand a lot is gained. How many of us, if we could choose, would remove all imaging capabilities from our phones and gadgets? What if Super 8 was still the predominant means of creating movies for the everyday person? Would we really prefer that over having what we have today? I wouldn't.

One of my neighbors' kids is having a graduation party next week. She and her sister used to play with my two kids for hours on end. They were almost inseparable during the summer months. When the weather was bad they would go down into the basement, put our camcorder on a tripod and make movies. They'd review them, do multiple takes, and basically use up a lot of tape. [Wink]

None of these kids are destined for a career in film making, but they had a whole lot of fun. And I'm going to have a lot of fun putting together a little video montage of those old creations for her party. Sometimes filmmaking is a very creative and artistic process. Sometimes it's about capturing the moment. Other times it's just having fun. All are legitimate.

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
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 - posted June 05, 2016 08:00 AM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
Well said, Tom.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted June 05, 2016 08:07 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, I don't understand what you mean by : "The vast majority of us used to go to the Cinema to watch others make what we couldn't. Perhaps that's what made it so 'romantic'. But now (if we want to) we can indulge ourselves, and what's become available and achievable and possible has become ordinary." If you use a super 8 camera or a smartphone, you're not able to make a film like professionnels do because you don't have the same Financial capcities (Professional acrors, locations and so on) so I don't get your point regarding this.

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Dominique

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William Olson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 287
From: Poughkeepsie, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2010


 - posted June 05, 2016 09:01 AM      Profile for William Olson   Email William Olson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many people posting here understand, I think, the point I was trying to make in my original post. Others haven't quite grasped my point. In any case, we all have opinions about the merits and faults of film and digital video. I just want to keep all formats alive and well. We all refer to this format or that format as being obsolete. Why are we so quick to trash the past? If you use a particular format and enjoy it, it's not obsolete.

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Ken Finch
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 543
From: Herne Bay, Kent. U.K.
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted June 05, 2016 12:59 PM      Profile for Ken Finch   Email Ken Finch   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone. Following on from my previous post and the comments made since, I wonder if the "romance" also has something to do with nostalgia. We have lived to see so many advances in technology.There is so much that we have today that didn't exist in my lifetime. I reached the old age of 82 years young this week!! The grandchildren are quite fascinated that I still have a collection of 78rpm records and can play them via an old Garrard auto changer. The sloping spindle model which could be loaded with 8 discs!! Also have LPs and 45rpm discs and decks. Cassette tapes and CDs. Much prefer listening to these than on computer or mobile phone etc. When I transfer peoples cine films to DVD, I always suggest they keep them or have them kept in an archive so that they can always be transferred to what ever digital media comes along in the future. Every few months we seem to be bombarded with advertisements urging us to have the latest improvements and making what we have obsolete. One wonders where it will all end. Ken Finch. [Roll Eyes] [Eek!]

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted June 05, 2016 01:02 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Happy Birthday, Ken !

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Dominique

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Dave Groves
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 508
From: Southend on Sea, Essex, UK
Registered: Feb 2015


 - posted June 06, 2016 04:43 AM      Profile for Dave Groves     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dominique, I was thinking about folk wanting to make 'a film'. The ability to make home movies has existed for a very long time but the ability to make something worth people paying to see at the Cinema has not. But now the digital net pulls in everyone from those with real ability to those who should never be near a camera, and what was once somewhat special because of it's uniqueness is now the norm because availabity of equipment. Mix in a bit of nostalgia for the 'old days' and it does seem that the old warm emotions (romance?) has all but gone. I think this whole subject is a swirl of personal preference in the end. For a film buff who still has access to a cinema showing 35mm on a single screen on carbon arcs and who joins a queue to get in on Saturday night, nothing has changed because he knows it hasn't. The same film buff given a multiplex and digital projection misses the familiar because he knows what change has done. Put a 20 year old in the either situation and it's what it is, pictures on a screen. He knows nothing of the background nor cares.

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Dave

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