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Author Topic: Film Collecting Price Guide.
David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 18, 2017 05:52 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
As you rightly state it would be merely a guide i would like to see.

I agree that this and other forums can give a reasonable idea as
to selling / buying prices but the problem for me is that it is on the internet and not everyone is a member of a forum.

I would like to see a paperback book guide published just like our Record Collector guide.
There are many collectors out there who may not be on the internet or don't even own a computer.

Yes there are many variables to take into account but this could
easily be dealt with i am sure. [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Jason Smith
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: Tohoku, Japan
Registered: Oct 2015


 - posted April 18, 2017 09:12 PM      Profile for Jason Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This forum has provided a valuable resource for newbies such as myself. Being able to search the buy/sell threads for equipment and films gives me a great idea of what specific films have sold for in the past.

I think a database showing the previous sale prices of specific films on this forum as well as eBay would be great. The database could also include a description on the film given given by the seller.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 18, 2017 11:30 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
People will pay what they want for a print- I don't see a problem with that. Ebay is a free market and as such the prices are determined by what the buyers will pay.
I remember the print of "The Terminator 2" that was stated as being damaged and in less than optimum condition. It still sold for a healthy amount. If you would of told the buyers that they were paying too much for a print like that in that condition it wouldn't have mattered a bit. They would still have bid and paid what they did as was evidenced by the outcome.
3.50 for a 400ft reel of "The Birds" if it was from a feature? Maybe in 1979. But now?
More like $30 a reel. And if it was the full feature the price could be very high.
With the demise of Derann all really nice quality prints have skyrocketed. That is the reality of the Super 8 hobby. It makes sense-there are no more prints to be made. What we have is what we have.

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 19, 2017 03:35 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan thanks for your thoughts.
Yes I know some people will pay what they want regardless.

However $30 for what i regard as a damaged reel of film is simply
ludicrous.
I doubt if any one with any common sense here in the UK would pay that amount. Maybe £5.00 - £10.00 tops.
I could be wrong though.

Yes prices for good used prints are rocketing now.
All the more reason for some kind of price guide i think before
people waste their money and end up with a pile of worthless junk
in their collections. [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 19, 2017 03:45 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I suspect anyone parting with the large sums in discussion here, knows exactly what they are getting for their money David.

These buyers as Alan quite correctly points out, simply do not see it that they are wasting their money.

Believe me David, I purchase many films nowadays from many different sources and one thing I've noticed is,..if you come across as simply being completely unrealistic in your demands as a buyer, sellers in this era can, and will, simply just ignore you.

They have others in waiting who will not be quite so fussy and who equally are more than happy to knowingly spend big on what is admitted to as being,far less than perfect goods in many cases.

They will tell you they can well do without the hassles associated with completely unrealistic buyer's at this late stage of the game. The hassle of having goods returned and all.

It's as Alan says above now, with time moving along now and no more of these prints ever to be made again, the seller has the greater power in many sales now for the more sought after items.

We either accept these facts or simply move on in life to some other medium or hobby which gives greater reliability of end result and perhaps greater satisfaction all around for many.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 19, 2017 04:10 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew i fully agree with what you and Alan are saying here.
The scammers are moving in no doubt about that.
Yes some people are extremely gullible at times.

However we did have some dodgy dealers in the past when this hobby was in its "golden years".
They were found out and lost sales and went out of business.

I just feel some kind of printed price guide would help newbies
from getting ripped off by these scammers.

If it gets to the stage where these scammers are to become the
norm when buying prints then i for one am out of this hobby after
about continuous 50 years film collecting.

I am sure others will follow me in that decision.
I am thankful we still have dealers such as Barry , Phil , Ian,David and Paul here in the UK for the time being.
I think when they go i may too.
[Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 19, 2017 04:19 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I also have enjoyed many fine films from the dealers you mention there David, but equally there are many decent individual sellers among our community that WILL describe their goods in even greater detail than perhaps our dealers will at times. Also of late, I have received quite a few titles from the kind of people I mention above, who have offered me goods at what I'd say is even below dealer prices at this present time and certainly far less than they could have got for their goods by offering them at auction.

There are plenty of decent individual collectors out there that I consider I now know and trust well enough to fully accept anything they describe to me without any subsequent hassles or returns.

If every dealer packed up tomorrow (heaven forbid), it certainly wouldn't signal the end of an era for myself I have to say.

For any newcomers to our hobby, I'd be more than happy to pass on the information I have of who I have dealt with over the years and who I have learned to trust implicitly.

I don't see too many active newcomers getting into this hobby nowadays though, if I'm honest.

[ April 19, 2017, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 19, 2017 08:07 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can i take from the responses so far on this forum that there is no appetite for a 'Film Collectors Price Guide' in book form ?
[Wink] [Wink] [Wink]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: USA
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 - posted April 19, 2017 11:00 AM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah I'm interested in a copy....when are you starting the project David?

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted April 19, 2017 12:26 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, just carrying on with my example - what would THE BIRDS go in the guide at? We've already had 2 widely differing valuations of £3.50 and $30 per reel.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 19, 2017 12:56 PM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Comic books - There you have a definite grading system and standard prices - Recordings and Toys about the same - With Motion Pictures, it is not impossible, yet very touchy for some - As regards 8mm, the same argument can be made for 16mm in an original box - You have two collectibles in one, both emphrema and the celluloid - By itself the film is negotiable - Case; L&H 16mm HOG WILD (Blackhawk) nice and clean - $75 - Too much? Let's consult the price guide - Why, there isn't one, well, we'll add that in and make it $60 - Trouble is, the original dealer will try for that original price - EBAY has curtailed any film-price guide - As been mentioned, we can work things out amongst ourselves without resorting to a guide - You know, if there was one, some may take it much to heart and remain strict - I would like to see one though, then it would be quite a tome whatwith 62mm, 9.5, 17.5, silent versions of "talkies", the many obscure cartoons, the outfits of long ago and how to discern an average price - Oh, it's a worthy task - If I were to start, I say all Blackhawk sound 400' 2-reelers from the Roach library are $30, with the exception of the longer shorts and the rarer editions - Again, quite a task, but one I herald further discussion over - We'll talk of it at Wildwood next week, wish some of you chaps can come over and haggle a bit - Cheers, Shorty

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 19, 2017 02:51 PM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh well maybe its a bad idea after all ! [Roll Eyes]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 19, 2017 03:34 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's actually a good idea. If done right it would be a great resource.

Unfortunately it's the kind of thing that would need to be kept up to date to stay useful.

Another problem is if you stuck to an average of current sales prices to get your number, one Star Wars print selling for 3,000 bucks in some whacky sale would skew that title's price high since there aren't a lot of prints being sold to pull the average closer to what it should really be. If the guidebook became the gold standard for what prints sell for, everybody would wind up spending more because this happened.

After that it comes down to whoever created the list making judgments what the prices really are.

-at the end of the day, just someone's opinion. (Personally, I'd want whoever it was to really hate the films I want!)

It also pays to remember that the easiest source of data for something like this would be Ebay. If what people say about the sales prices on there being crazy is true, do we really want that to be the standard driving the market?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 19, 2017 03:50 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As Steve points out regarding the legitimacy of the guide, things would change on an almost month to month basis these days.

Last weeks price for Gentlemen Prefer Blondes - $400
This weeks price..$2000!

Last weeks price for Cocoon - $300
This weeks price ... $ 1750!

How could a book ever be written without it becoming out of date and inaccurate inside a month now and who decides what the "normal" price of these are in 2017/18?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 19, 2017 04:38 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You either do it my reel size from 200ft to full feature or you do it by title or genre.

Sciencefiction , Hammer horror, James Bond , Star Wars & Star Trek etc at a premium with proberably musicals, westerns and dramas being priced lower.

You could get an average price for a title by collating the prices specific titles are sold at by collectors or eBay.

You could always ask Ian or Barry as they actually sell them all the time. In case of Ian he hasn't put his prices up from 1981 😫😫(only kidding) Least he stopped using those bloody labels that don't come off📽📽📽

Anyway David you have a BIG task ahead of you. Hope you have a double bowl of Quaker Oats tomorrow with sugar. I expect pie charts and analysis data projecting current and future prices from you. Glad you have your retirement task organised 😜😜😜😜

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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 - posted April 19, 2017 05:05 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its a "GUIDE" as to what you might pay, could be higher or lower based on other criteria and your bargaining powers, and these items in this case would be almost all be second hand and used. Common sense should prevail, but I know this is difficult when your buying something you want, I just don't think it would harm price's in the market, its not the law written in granite.

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted April 19, 2017 06:20 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe it should be something like the old Derann S/H rating A - Very Good, B - Good Average, c -Fair, D - Poor, to indicate how much less (percentage wise) a print should be from the price of a perfect copy.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 19, 2017 06:33 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I loved the old grading and subsequent pricing structure implemented by Derann Brian, but the problem now is the fact that more or less all of these commonly seen used prints that regularly used to feature on the Derann lists of old, are seldom seen now.
It's very very saddening for all involved but a stark reality already nevertheless.

Many must have already hit the scrap yard even those from the later days judging by what we see in circulation.

I've actively pursued every title I have ever desired from way back when, and still there are some I never ever see, and these are some of the very latest commercial cine films ever released!

They have either gone to the great film graveyard in the sky or they are very much still loved and treasured.

I do hope it is the latter!

[ April 20, 2017, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 20, 2017 03:24 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brian I have already drafted out a film condition grading system along similar lines as Derann's one.

However it uses a much stricter definition criteria than theirs.
The reason for this in order to give a fairer realistic analysis
of a print's true condition.

I always felt that Derann's gradings were a bit frugal at times.

For example my grading system does not rate a print with a scratch in it as... (A) :Very Good or (B) :Good.

There would be a complete and detailed table giving a description
for each of the grade categories. That takes all variables into account.

[Smile] [Wink]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 20, 2017 03:42 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Barry uses a grading system as you know David. I once asked him why no print I was ever interested in from reading through his lists, ever had "A" or even "A-" at the side of them.

He said it was because he felt it was fairer to grade nearly all used films as "B+" at best, as they are all used and many have some signs of being used.

There probably are very few actual "A" prints left if a print has been regularly used throughout its lifetime so far, but then to my way of thinking, any grading system relevant to this present day, should in my opinion, be able to start at A and finish at D or E based on what is currently available and the various degrees of wear to what is left in the market.

As I recall, Derann didn't tend to give out an A to prints with emulsion scratches, certainly none I ever bought anyhow, but they would put A- to something with an odd scratch or two if all else was really nice.

I have bought and seen lab defective prints off their lists though with an A against them even though they told you on the list what the minor fault was.
Odd reels used to surface often. These, rightly so, were always labelled up as A prints as they were brand new, but still just an odd part from a feature and were generally offered at half the normal selling price.
There were many good bargains to be had off the Derann used lists, and not all of them were actually "used". [Wink]

So overall, I'd say any present day grading system in this era, would have to display a greater tolerance towards minor flaws and defects than back then.
Otherwise you simply finish up with a whole list of C, D or E prints that no one would risk buying.
I think we all have to be extremely realistic in what we can likely find now compared to the days they were still frequently being made brand new.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted April 20, 2017 05:28 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew my grading system will indeed be using a letter system but to a much tighter criteria than has been used by the dealers.
Barry would inform you that I very rarely buy a print from him unless it is at least B+ or higher.
No matter what the title is or how rare it is today.

I was always surprised with Derann's grading taking into consideration that Derek was at one time a professional cinema
projectionist like myself.

He would have probably given a different report than myself when
making out a 35mm film condition report at a cinema.

As i have mentioned my grading system would not grant an A or B to a print that has an emulsion or base scratch on it.

[Smile]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted April 20, 2017 05:39 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I think Derek was probably just thinking to himself, I need to actually sell some of these films. [Big Grin] [Wink]

As I say, I got one or two used features back then labelled as A- prints yet did contain minor emulsion scratches.
I was happy enough with them and that was over 25 years ago now, when these prints were less than a few years old. [Wink]

There are only a very select few feature length prints I have purchased this time around without even a trace of any noticeable wear on them.
Recently, I haven't found any that would make your A grade David.

I suspect very few people in this hobby actually buy feature length prints at the price they were new to then only view them all once or twice.
I know we see these words written in sales spiel often,even to this day,..but from what I've seen, this is either a gross exaggeration or they are using some awful machines otherwise.

It's actually a fairly difficult thing to achieve, to be able to run an hour and half worth of film in one session regularly, without some kind of minor infliction occurring to the film, certainly it is unless your machines are all kept in tip top precise working condition without any wear to themselves.
That rules many machines out sadly David.

I think if it is these levels of flawless perfection that people strive to repeatedly achieve who are interested in film still, then the only realistic option to grant them complete satisfaction, would be some form of digital projection.
Even then, often we can find irritating traits in the presentation offered if we are overly picky

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Joe Caruso
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted April 20, 2017 10:13 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When OVERSTREET began, did they have the same trouble? Though there was no EBAY back then - Comics were bickered over price-wise - Same with old toys - Much more ferocity with film, but I'm eager to help if a guide of sorts is commenced - Shorty

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted April 20, 2017 10:35 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think the idea of such a guide is good,but unless everyone uses it and more importantly interprets it the same,then we are back to square one.

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