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Author Topic: OK, let's get this straight ...
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted September 19, 2017 11:50 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have heard a number of film sellers, ranging from professional sellers to ebay sellers, that, when asked about color quality, will respond with, "good color, as it is on Poly stock".

The question being ...

Just because something is on polyester stock, that it will be low fade or at the least, retain it's good color?

You're thoughts, ladies and gentleman.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Jason Patnode
Film Handler

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From: Zephyr Cove, NV, USA
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted September 19, 2017 12:51 PM      Profile for Jason Patnode   Author's Homepage   Email Jason Patnode   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm still very new to collecting so still trying to learn the ropes. What are the different film stocks commonly found?

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Jason Patnode

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Belgium
Registered: Nov 2009


 - posted September 19, 2017 12:51 PM      Profile for Alexander Vandeputte   Email Alexander Vandeputte   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The filmbase has nothing to do with the emulsion that is attached to it. So a polyester /estar film base does not mean the film stock is low fade. You need to identify the emulsion itself to be able to tell wether it's low fade or not:
And that is very easy: Eastman and Kodak SP and pre 1982 Fuji and Agfa are all prone to fading, each with their own fading characteristics. Kodak LPP and post 1982 Fuji and Agfa are low fade.
Polyester /Estar film base has been around for a long time, but gained prominence towards the later years of film production, so a polyester / estar based film is more likely to be low fade but it's not a guarantee.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted September 19, 2017 03:01 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Spot on Alexander and many of the latest brand new prints can be on Acetate.

The base means nothing as a guarantee of a films fading characteristics.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Lancashire, UK
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 - posted September 19, 2017 04:11 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a 16mm feature 70s film on Eastman and you would swear its technicolour and owned it for 15 years
you cant beat black and white

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted September 19, 2017 04:18 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Jason, poly is elastic vs acetace which is breakable.

@Osi those two stocks have nothing to do with fading. They can both be fading too depending on the lab process.

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Winbert

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Lancashire, UK
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 - posted September 19, 2017 04:23 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
what about Fuji does that fade

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: London, UK
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 - posted September 19, 2017 04:28 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think some Fuji fades, but not as much or in the same way as others more brownish or purple, I believe for the older stock. I have 2 prints of Capricorn One Promo one copy on Agfa one on Fuji and I can't tell much difference.

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Andrew Woodcock
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 - posted September 19, 2017 04:50 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As Alexander quite correctly pointed out earlier, Fuji stock follows the same path as the rest, post 82 is considered low fade, anything earlier will fade.

Pre 82 Fuji film uniquely fades towards purple hues.

Alexander's earliest reply, as was said at the time, was both spot on in terms of accuracy and inclusiveness.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Robert Tucker
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted September 19, 2017 05:22 PM      Profile for Robert Tucker   Email Robert Tucker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
LPP also fades, it all depends on the lab work that was done and the final washing process.

Also LPP prints (acetate) are prone to VS (Vinegar Syndrome).

AGFA tends to lean towards the blue spectrum. So having an LPP print would be second best to Technicolor print.

All other film stock pre-1983 will fade within time including Kodak 3M (35mm & 16mm)

You will also come across the dreaded Fuji film rot.

[ September 20, 2017, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Robert Tucker ]

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted September 20, 2017 02:45 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I though 3M was Ferrania, the reversal stock I used in the 70's for still and cine was.

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Andrew Woodcock
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 - posted September 20, 2017 05:56 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
It was! [Big Grin] [Wink]

http://alessandropanelli.com/blog/2014/12/24/ferrania-history

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted September 20, 2017 11:39 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fuji can certainly fade, but from what i have seen, 1979 fuji on up has tended to hlod it's color excellently. All my 1979 on fuji still looks brand new ... as to whether it will eventually fade, i don't know. Fingers crossed on that ...

... and thank you to those who verified my suspicions on this topic. I had thought as much ...

So, film sellers, whether professional or ebay ...

You're on notice, "poly" doesn't automatically mean a low fade film print. [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
Film Handler

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 - posted September 20, 2017 02:31 PM      Profile for Daniel D. Teoli Jr.   Email Daniel D. Teoli Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Poly stock is newish...isn't it? If newish, the emulsion is not that old to fade.

I have some 1941 Kodachrome 8mm that look great. I think Ihave one from '39 as well. My 1970's color is all red.

I vote emulsion I the cause, unless the base somehow contributes chemically to the decline.

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Penistone Sheffield UK
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 - posted September 20, 2017 04:30 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Marketing Films used estar stock in the later part of the 70s and some are faded.

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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David Guest
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 - posted September 22, 2017 02:20 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
just screened a mint print condition of a late 1980s film lpp and guess what it has faded colour looks like Eastman so no one is safe long live black and white

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Alan Rik
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 - posted September 22, 2017 04:03 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So what's the title of the film? Just curious as I hope it's not in my collection!

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Andrew Woodcock
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 - posted September 22, 2017 05:50 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
And also David,..what is the gauge and who released it? [Wink]

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Michael O'Regan
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 - posted September 23, 2017 09:03 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That doesn't sound right to me. I too am interested in the case of a late 80's LPP print being as faded as that. Is it definitely LPP?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted September 23, 2017 10:38 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Any I have from the 80's onwards on LPP , Agfa or Fuji stock are still as good as when they were released by Derann and co regarding their colour.

These are all official Super 8mm releases however, so I cannot vouch for any prints outside of these parameters.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted September 23, 2017 11:24 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David ...

I'm curious too. Are you absolutely sure that it's L.P.P. or is that an assumption, based upon it being in the late 80's and L.p.P. stock being around as, some comapnies (sad but true) were still using Kodak SP as long as it was available. There are optical sound super 8 features which were apparantly still printed on Kodak SP film stock as late as 1987.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Lancashire, UK
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 - posted September 23, 2017 04:59 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I cant check the film now as I sold and posted it I will contact the man in a day or so and see what he has to say

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted September 23, 2017 05:07 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
But what was the film, gauge, distributor and evidence to suggest it was LPP post 82 stock, David?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted September 24, 2017 03:46 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On the other hand a print on LPP from faded original material will still look faded, especially the master is a print.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted September 24, 2017 03:48 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Good point Brian and quite possibly, one of only a couple of possibilities I can think of to explain this highly unusual example of David's here.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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