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Author Topic: Mark Sylvesters Bootlace Forum
Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 09, 2004 12:28 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just popped over to Mark Sylvester's Bootlace Forum -it's all gloom and doom about his forum and the sad future of 8mm over there. I think the mistake Mark has made, on his otherwise excellent forum, is not requiring people to post using their real names. Sorry, but I can't get enthusiastic about responding to names like "Rosebud" and "The Nuts are Loose" - it's so silly and impersonal. Brad has it right to insist on real names, and that's why this forum is so successful.
As for the bashing of 8mm on Mark's forum, I find this very puzzling. If people are not into Super 8 collecting, why are they even bothering to go there. And the last thing I need to hear again, is about the superiority of DVD.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 09, 2004 12:39 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Too right, proper names should be used, we all have nicknames etc but when we'r talking together on line lets be a wee bit more professional before super 8 becomes the place where sado's hang out, with some of the names ive seen on thier it reminds me of images of places where people wearing anoracks hang out [Big Grin] , not for me, and whats this about talking super 8 down? i dont call that an entusiats forum so much as a "kill 8mm altegether" forum.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 09, 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah!,

As I see it, he's yielded to the temptation we sometimes encounter here to broaden the appeal of this group by becoming more general interest. The problem with that is that the people in the vast majority drown out the folks in the minority, and the smaller group loses it's place.

Another problem is that the more general interest you make something, the more groups there will be doing exactly the same thing you are trying to do, and you'll wind up being just another ant in the anthill, and not particularly interesting. (Try starting a group called, "folks who breathe air", and just see who cares enough to join!)

By sticking to it's original intent, this forum keeps itself worth being a part of. It's not for everybody, but it's good for us!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 10, 2004 06:57 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well put steve and very true, im staying here. [Wink]

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 11, 2004 06:18 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well I`d like to say I think Marks forum is great, not least for the amount of work he has put in doing very interesting stuff.
I think the term "Anorak" is more likely apt to people who pursue a very narrow line of interest and get all stuffy and funny should someone dare to suggest its not as they think.
Mark does quite a bit for the hobby as many will know, he`s introduced people at a local collage to super 8 anew and there has been interest from people coming to his forum who would likely never have come accross film and hes helped people to tool up as it were and still himself enjoys watching films.
The reason I really like it there is the broader appeal, the hobby needs to broaden out a bit at least if its going to survive , you may remember a while ago I was all fired up to do an article and place an add in a mainstream mag about super 8 to get it out there and I`d have put up a good % of the cash myself but the interest from other super 8 ers was almost nil so I let it go.
Dealers don`t of course because there is no way film can compete but I liked the idea of showing a few people who hadn`t heard of it what its all about.
I love film and always will but for me it has to become a part of the whole film watching thing with the mainstay probably video projection, plenty of people registered here do both and some mainly or only watch the video as it happens.
I think its a shame to slate Mark and his efforts as he has put not only his time and money in but also some thought and the really great thing is that you can say what you like.
Its only building up slowly and after all this forum was already well established and the numbers interested in super 8 are very small just over 200 members here from all over the world, there was a time you could manage that in a large town itself.
Its a fact that film will continue to down size and any dealer will appreciate that and prices will continue to fall on many films, even 16mm in the US is sliding fast as once people have seen what video can do now and very cheaply many think well why bother, and get away from the projector goings on and the rip offs etc.
There will inevitably always be a band of serious filmies with me included but I can`t put my head in the sand about super 8, deraan still do a great job and Phil and Denise have put one hec of a lot of effort in and cash.And we all know the late Derek`s opinion on the future of 8 !!!!! But don`t worry there will always be films and machines about to mess on with so you can get away with saying the future of super 8 is small and a niche.
So in all I say thank you to Mark and others who put some effort in and give us room to talk and discuss anything and say what we feel and Marks very very good forum is a great place to do it.
best Mark.T.
PS by the way my name on there is Mark, and The nuts are loose becuase mine most definately are and I don`t think for a minute that what I say about anything is nessecarily right or wrong or I know anything better than anybody else but I do like a chat and a laugh amd sometimes a disscusion.

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 11, 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
PS just a thought but on the point of film and new releases maybe a way to approach it with say Derann is like a film bond type thing.
If Derann have a list of films they could maybe do get say 20 of us to pay maybe £200 bond so to speak, not a deposit or a payment towards the film but a support for derann, those people all then buy a copy and derann sell the rest, once they break even they start to pay people back a % or put them in credit for a film in future.
Just a thought that could maybe help to rlease something.
By the way I do love film but I think we need to think laterally if we do want to give it a bit more of a future and open the hobby out a bit.
Best Mark.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 11, 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ooops, i certainly never try to upset anyone and anyone who sets up a forum to do with reel film has my full support, i wasn/t refering to the gent who runs the forum at all, i just gety a little frustrated at anyone who slags off film, 8 or 16mm. After all, if some people believe film is dead or dying and want to move on thats fair enuf but because something better or improved comes along i dont think thats a good excuse to down talk film, after all, film is where it all began, i do agree its going to downsize just as vinyl did after cd's, My little opinion was aimed at the critics not the forum host, as you said, the way its done shows a lot of time and effort but it does have its big share of people who slate film, seems an odd thing to do on a forum put out for film,
love and hugs
Tom [Big Grin] [Wink]

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted July 11, 2004 03:33 PM      Profile for David Roberts   Email David Roberts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom,
I liked your point about vinyl records and CD because it could well turn out in a similar way between film and DVD.
When CD was first introduced most peaple thought that vinyl would die,but it hasnt.Its flourished,though on a much smaller scale than before.
A lot of peaple heavily into audio think vinyl records sound much nicer than CD,but would agree that digital is much more convenient to use.
I liken film to the vinyl record,a lot more effort necessary to use but much more satisfying if you can be bothered!
I for one can mosr certainly be bothereb!
Regards

David R.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 11, 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well it's been a wet afternoon here in Orlando, so I have spent a couple of hours on the Home Theatre web pages , reading some user reviews of current video projectors. I had assumed that the problems with video projectors had been resolved by now, judging by the glowing reports on this and other film forums. Apparently this is not entirely the case, many reviews of current projectors speaking of " visible rainbow effects", ' screen door effect was visible even 15 ft away from the screen", " annoying vertical bars visible on bright scenes", " lost pixels", "dust on the LCD requiring the projector to be disassembled and cleaned every month", " color variation across the screen" and so on. And these are all current state of the art projectors. I am not here to knock video, but it certainly sounds like video projectors have a slew of problems which film is mercifully free of, and that the picture quality of home video projectors has been overstated.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 12, 2004 07:44 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I`m afraid thats clearly not the case at all, my very meagre sony CS2 does awesome pictures up to 7.5 feet and way beyond any film I`ve had, never mind up to that size, over 12 feet or so not even a hint of a pixel and machines now are far beyond that quality wise.I sit at 7 eet or so and its superb, can`t sit that close with my smaller cine picture.
I know someone who has lately bought a bang up to date DLP machine, incredible picture and contrast, no pixellation at all, amazing performance like 35mm at least, £500 brand new.
There are ineviatably problems with any format but on the whole video proction now has to be seen to be belived at the price its now down to, most people get superb and solid problem free viewing and it just getting better. Its no use comparing the picture as such as video will win now hands down, thats not what the fun of cine is about and we don`t need to be scared of video at all. Film will not stand or fall if we say, wow video is really is good now. Cine is more of a hobby in many fun ways but you need to be realistic about it.
I suggest people here go and see a moderate up to date machine and you will be amazed, then come home get out the old elmo and have a good old proper film session as well, great fun and all that but the people who like myself will say how good video proecjtion is now have seem both and believe me can talk from experiance, the two are ideal bedfellows and its just possible cine may attract the odd soul who does video projection but it will be an uphill struggle and I believe that now as I have said I think we collectors and enthusiasts need to back up our love of the hobby with some cash up front.
Best Mark.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 12, 2004 12:21 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do see the points and agree that dvd/video projection has definatly come along way, as you rightly say cine is a hobby and in all our views,(i'm sure) an excellent one, there is nothing that can beat true cine projection for the experience, i'm talking about the quality but the actual hobby of cine,(real film) projection. Even now when i show a cartoon to a child or even a normal film to an adult in my little film den they are always silent and amazed at the true film image, but definatly agree that dvd/video projecton is today very good, but back to the original point,, its a bit of a scilly exercise comparing film to digital and visa versa, they are both hobbies in there own right with digital being more convienient and in the case of the films themselves a hell of a lot cheaper with mega amounts more choice, remember cd Vs Vinyl, the showman ship of cine wins hands down for me and one day i will venter into the realms of dvd projection, but i wouldnt sell my collection of 8/16mm to get it. [Wink]

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 13, 2004 03:00 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, come on; like 35mm!!! Not a chance. There isn't a video projector out there that can match 35mm. And that includes the best machines which initially cost millions for places like the Odeon Leicester Square.

I've seen a couple of budget projectors (i.e. sub £10,000) that look very good but still suffer from manufactured imagery. However, that of course primarily comes down to the nature of the discs being used. The best Super 8 prints are still exceptional and give these projectors a run for their money. But as you rightly say, there's more to the cine side of things than just picture quality, it's a real hobby.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted July 13, 2004 11:43 AM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
'....Mark, come on; like 35mm!!! Not a chance. There isn't a video projector out there that can match 35mm. And that includes the best machines which initially cost millions for places like the Odeon Leicester Square...'

People are now finding that some parts of a film programme are shown with lights on, other cinemas do not turn lights out, only partialy dim them.
Can these expensive projectors cope with that?

Last 2 films I saw in the cinema just had the sound far too loud, and I'm a person who likes the volume up saying that.

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Regards,
David

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 13, 2004 11:50 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yep, good shout John, well put, if film isn't so good why do the BBC and channel 4 still use it today to shhot?
Nuf said ,super 8 is great, its a hobby, and a fine one at that. [Wink] [Big Grin]

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 13, 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi No I meant like 35mm in the home really not as such cinema doings but 8 and 16mm have both been surpassed by cheap machines now.
But right its not a hobby like film, most days I even need to just reel out abit of the real stuff and look at the images up to the light for a slight fix, nothing like it but you really need to have caught it bad like we all have.
best Mark.

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted July 14, 2004 03:16 PM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I rather like the idea of the UK Forum covering all aspects of projection, I find it very usefull.
As well as this USA 8mm forum I'm in the 16mm forum as well.
I find the 16mm forum in the main covers 16mm topics but on occastions other formats get a mention without folks getting upset.

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Regards,
David

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 02:18 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It doesn't upset me to discuss video projection. What upsets me is mistakenly believing budget video projectors are superior to film projectors. Now 8mm is obviously a tiny gauge but when you see the best prints they still give sub-£10k video projectors a run for their money.

Modern 16mm is exceptional. The previous video projector at the Odeon didn't look like it was quite up to modern 16mm standards. However, if you're basing comparisons on older or poorer releases then of course you will get the impression that budget video projection is superior.

Derann have a very good Sony on sale for £799.99 (or at least they did at the last open day). But it was interesting to see some people looking at it and being instantly convinced it was superior to Super 8 - it wasn't. It was okay for watching the odd disc but you'd soon get tired of it and, assuming your eyes are okay, get sick of the wishy washy qualities just about all these budget machines display. However, I must say for the money it is excellent and better than both my LCD projectors - and those retailed around £7,000 when new a few years back. I got bored with them both very quickly.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 09:49 AM      Profile for Chris Quinn   Email Chris Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
What you said seems to be the way with all enthusiasts who also have a video projector, i have never herd any one get enthusiastic about video as they do about 8mm.

Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Keith Wilton
Junior
Posts: 1
From: London
Registered: May 2004


 - posted July 15, 2004 09:56 AM      Profile for Keith Wilton   Author's Homepage   Email Keith Wilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhapd Mark Todd could let us into the technical secret of how a budget video projector can be a sgood as 35mm? Most budget machines have a resolution of just 800x600 with some better tuypes reaching just over the 1,000 mark. 35mm film negative resolution, by comparison is, 4096x3112 and even Super 16 outguns Hi-def video with a resoloution of 2048x1152 compared to 1920x1080 (Hi-Def). Please let me kow where I can by one of the fantastic budget machines that out-performs 35mm - I want one! Kwith Wilton

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 11:58 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Keith,
A very big welcome to the Forum!!! We are honored to have you aboard -hope this is the first of many postings by you. What are the numbers for super 8 resolution?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi keith its now possible to get a dlp machine now very very cheaply that is " Like" having 35mm in the home, no absolutes but an amazing picture that really does top 16 + 8, thats not affecting one bit how much I love film but it is here now and I`ve seen it.And just make a comparrison space wise.
Its common knowledge that Derek S sold all of his films and collected DVD`s and raved about his video projectors quality and he is one of the people who said to me like 35mm in the home funnily enough.
Its all about what you want and I`m of the mind that they are a great add on to any cine hobbiests ways to enjoy a big picture up there and the magic of the movies, its all about that after all and a video projector opens up doors to allsorts of cracking stuff you could never get or afford on film.
The two companies in the UK who still release film are the only film dealers who push video projectors as far as I know, though other film dealers use video projectors.
Films a hobby and there are times I tire a little of film and times I tire a little of the video depending but I do know that with my sony I`ve had some cracking fun much as I have elmos etc over the years.
I do love film and I`d be happy to actually put my hand in my pocket to support a release but doesn`t seem like any other people would be.
All in all whatever I think and say is open to debate and right or wrong or who cares but I would like to think I never value my own opinion over anyone elses just like to share thoughts.
Best Mark.

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 826
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for Mike Newell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rolling around in a nylon blue anorak howling at the moon is no funany more and it wont make your Elmo Projector work either!!

I thought I saw a puddy cat is it here!!

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David Park
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2003


 - posted July 15, 2004 08:45 PM      Profile for David Park   Email David Park   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Kieth.
I'm very happy with my PT-AE 500 Panasonic LCD Video projector.
With my digital AV amplifier and several channels of sound, I do seem to get into 'Odeon' quaulity.
In my case money is important and as much as I like cine film in 8 and 16mm I get a DVD for a fraction of the cost of a cine print.

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Regards,
David

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 16, 2004 02:08 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Methinks a few people have missed your point Keith. But as Paul asked, it would be very interesting to know the resolution of Super 8.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 16, 2004 02:58 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But Derek was selling DVD projectors so what better way to convert the s8 die hards?............

I know Iknow stop being a cynic....

Oh, Hi Keith. Nice to see you here

Tony

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Tony

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