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Author Topic: JURASSIC PARK RECORDING
Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 17, 2009 10:46 AM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A couple of years ago I purchased this print new from Steve Osborne. Came striped but without sound. It is a print from Germany of acetate base with brown stripe applied on both tracks main & balance. It is NOT the charcoal grey laminate stripe that Derann is known to be using.

I was told the heads on the GS1200 had to be adjusted to get the ideal recording for stereo surround.

Playing through my system, it is anything but ideal.

Sometimes there is center channel dialogue, other times there is not. Meaning, center channel is coming out of "other" channels not the one that is designated for it. I know that if the character is speaking from left or right side of the screen sometimes left or right speaker would be used. But here, it is clear to me the sound is wrong.

There are some scenes where dialogue has alot of echo or reverb and it is so bad it can't be intended through original production.

The volume (movie dialogue) is quite low even when my system is pushing levels (volume "up" on Pro Logic units) I don't normally need for most other stereo prints.

The recording on this print does sound better overall in 2 track mono using the ST1200HD. But of course, stereo is lost.

The reels of this film have been played through all of my 1200hd units with the same results.

My other stereo super 8 prints seem much better or normal as to be expected.

Is there anyone who can re-record this for me wth fast turn around time? Maybe do this in January after the holidays are over?

I would prefer that someone be able to work with 1200 foot reels and the Pedro sync box with the sound from DVD. I can supply the NTSC DVD soundtrack if required.

It is also important this be done in the USA to avoid costly international shipping.

I'll pay $50.00 labor plus round trip shipping to anyone who can promise the above. To make it easier, please be able to accept Paypal for payment.

Respond here please and we can set it up. I am quite positive my equipment and configuration is fine and it is the print which has to be corrected.

I suspect that the first recording was passed through some sort of a mixer; and/or a button was not properly set which caused these issues. It almost as if some of these channels are reversed as the film plays.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone can help me solve this as I do not have the equipment or knowledge to do this myself.

Chip Gelmini

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Jeroen van Ooijen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 823
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Mar 2008


 - posted December 17, 2009 10:56 AM      Profile for Jeroen van Ooijen   Email Jeroen van Ooijen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maby Gian can help you! [Wink]

--------------------
Super8 that's the greatest hobby in my life,i was 9 to have my first viewer from GAF.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted December 17, 2009 11:12 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Chip.
The dolby surround system based on the (old) matrix system i.e. 4-channel sound derived by an encoded 2-channel stereo sound, demands pre-requisites that are absolutely strict, in terms of rec/playback constance of speed, frequency response output consistency etc.. There appeared a post by Brad on this forum years ago which was really well written, explaining why true stereo sorround sound is almost impossible to achieve with S/8. But it is, actually possible to get something very close to it. That's what I achieve when I use my GS 1200 with the Pedro sync box AND I screen the film with another (Xenon) GS, whise sound heads have proved to be very close to the other's in terms of tilt, azimuth etc. BUT for better results I tend to use a double system soundtrack i.e. the sound is prepped specifically to sync with the start leader of each reel of a feature and burnt onto a DVD with the same countdown leaders (and cue bip) as the print's; of course the "Pedro Sync Box" is also required here.
That said, I'd be happy to do the re-recording for you, but unfortunately I live in Europe.

Best of luck.

Maurizio

--------------------
Maurizio

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted December 17, 2009 12:28 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chip-I highly recommended Lance Alspaugh. I received a T2 print from Derann that had very poor sound and he re-recorded it beautifully. It had the grey stripe. Osi can confirm this Lance's quality. Here is his email:

theatres at aol.com

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 17, 2009 01:23 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry to announce this but it WAS Lance recommended by Steve Osborne who did the original recording on my print of JP.

[Confused]

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 170
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted December 17, 2009 01:47 PM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chip are you running 5.1 on this print? do you have a good subwoofer to lock centre dialogue? i found that running this print on 35 in theatre that there was a lot of left to right drift.
Regards
stewart

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
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 - posted December 17, 2009 02:09 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am running standard pro logic enhanced off super 8 stereo sound.

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Stewart John Boyle
Expert Film Handler

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From: Glasgow,Scotland
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 - posted December 17, 2009 02:17 PM      Profile for Stewart John Boyle   Email Stewart John Boyle   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chip.does super 8 stereo acommodate surround? if not i would try left and right only..

--------------------
I`ve, seen things you people wouldn`t believe,

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 17, 2009 04:11 PM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sadly you have just come across a common problem with the German laminate stripe. Perhaps try to record in dual-track mono and you may find you get away with it. Alternatively just do as I do and always run the print sync' pulse.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 17, 2009 04:50 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is beginning to get frustatingly complicated. Although I do appreciate the replies and suggestions for help.

As I picked up the tripple pack DVD for the sequels that includes the original, my easy conclusion to solve this problem is:

1. Run the super 8 print for the enjoyment of running the movie on super 8 sound. Keep the sound playback from the 1200HD in 2 track mono as this is the best quality sound from the print based on the problem of the recording.

2. Run the DVD when I want to watch the movie in stereo with surround; with the added Panasonic projector it can show on the same screen as the super 8. Plus, the DVD is properly cropped to the original 1.85 aspect ratio compared to the 1:33.1 ratio of the super 8 copy.

And by the way, because I have the video projector plus the super 8 machines, I just HATE watching a movie on TV. Even if it was an old movie originally shot for the TV ratio.....I just need a BIG screen to watch a true movie. One could say the ratio of difference is like the same as a toothpick standing vertically next to the Empire State Building.

Well, sort of.

R.I.P. V.H.S. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 17, 2009 07:55 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes! Lance is the "Bees Knees"

(ya know, I never have understood that phrase!)

All kidding aside, Lance's recordings are second to none. He recorded, in stereo, my "SITH" reel, and trhe sound was incredibly balanced. The balance stripe had a much better recording than I have ever heard before, (as the balance stripe is usually the "weakest link"!)

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted December 17, 2009 08:28 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have had mixed success with stereo quality on super 8, and as Mauizio has pointed out, it all comes down to the quality of the stripe. My best stereo re-recording is of 'Grease', which is a Derann scope print, and it has the grey stripe. The quality I got with this film, using the Eumig 938 to record, is simply stunning. Other films have not been as good. For example I also re-recorded Derann's print of 'High Society' and got great results on some reels and poor results on others. And its not always the balance stripe. In fact I often get better recording on the balance stripe than on the main stripe! The best ever stipe was probably the rust colored Kodak pre-stripe, which was very smooth with no dropouts. Derann stripe ranges from good to awful. I often have to run my 938 or GS1200 with the balance control way off center to compensate for different recording levels on the two tracks, and it varies a lot from reel to reel. All this makes stereo recording a bit iffy, and I have never been able to acheive any significant surround sound on anything I have done - I just don't think Super 8 can get you surround sound - 2 channel stereo is about it.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 18, 2009 04:35 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jurassic Park on DVD may be masked to the correct ratio but if you compare it to Super 8 you'll see that there is more picture information on Super 8. This is because you have a reduction from an original theatrical print; the print is masked by the gate of the projector at the cinema. This isn't the case with 8mm and that means it has to be masked down with black surrounds to the screen. Still, it's interesting to spot the computer generated sequences when the frame immediately shrinks to 1.85:1.

The cheapest way to run the 8mm print in sync' with DVD is to get a copy of the region 2 disc. There's no messing about with the NTSC speed synchronization then, just a straightforward 25 frames per second.

All sound stripe varies: even Kodak stripe wasn't perfect all the time. A lot of Derann stripe was very good indeed and a lot of the German paste stripe has also been very good. When any of it's bad though it can be very frustrating. However, what may appear to be poor stripe on one machine may record well on another. Even a print that appeared to have a poor balance stripe years ago can sometimes record okay on the same machine years later. This happened with my first run print of Aliens. Initially the balance stripe would barely take any level at all and then about five years later it gave a perfect recording using the same machine... the machine had worn down sufficiently and was matching the qualities of the stripe.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 18, 2009 08:18 AM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I do not have a GS1200 and I am not able to run pulse sync and/or re-record. I do not own a Pedro box either.

-cg-

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 18, 2009 08:45 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
... then send an e-mail to Lance, Chip. You will not be disappointed with his quality, and hye's pretty darned affordable, being that he is one of the few that even does this anymore.

With Lance, its never just turning on his GS 1200. This is what happens ...

1. He first takes the mag stripe to be recorded and tests it for sound frequency.

2. He thyen takes the soundtrack to be recorded and puts it through his "mixer" to get the highest frequency for EACH track to be recorded, AND, from what I understand, he does this for EACH REEL. In other words, he doesn't just assume the same frequency of recording for each track.

3. Once he's satisfied, only then does he do the recording.

As Lance has told me, these stereo recordings can vary a lot. I personally told him I wanted the option from the DVD (of SITH) that I wanted the two track Dolby Surround version of the soundtrack, as that would allow for surround playback through my stereo system.

Lance did not disappoint. The soundtrack was incredible. The surround worked quite well! There was a slight "bubbling" to the sound here and there, but it was rare, and that was do to the sound striping and not his recording.

I hope that this helps, Chip.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 18, 2009 10:52 AM      Profile for Gary Crawford   Email Gary Crawford   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lance will do the best job possible, BUT.....he will tell you that indeed it does come down to the stripe. I sent him a Goldeneye ..that first reel of it..as released by classic ...it had muddy mono ....I wanted him to record it in stereo.....well, he wrote back after trying and working with it and told me the stripe just couldn't support it.... I ended up having him just do a good , well modulated mono track... and it was pretty good.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted December 18, 2009 10:59 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi wrote:

quote:
... then send an e-mail to Lance, Chip. You will not be disappointed with his quality,
Osi didn't you read Chip's explanation previously regarding his print?

quote:
Sorry to announce this but it WAS Lance recommended by Steve Osborne who did the original recording on my print of JP.
[Confused] [Confused]

--------------------
Winbert

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 19, 2009 08:39 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a shame ...

I doubt anyone could do a better job than Lance, but then, these german laminate stripes could vary quite a lot. If Lance couldn't squeeze out a great recording on the print, then it's probably impossible.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Graham Sinden
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 - posted December 19, 2009 10:56 AM      Profile for Graham Sinden   Email Graham Sinden   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chip, If you dont mind me suggesting, unless money is tight why dont you BUY a GS1200. Your feature collection certaintly deserves one and if in good condition you wont regret it. The ST1200 is a good reliabile machine but every collector needs a GS [Smile] 200W bulb, easy stereo, easy to convert to 2 blade shutter, pulse sync need I say more.

Graham S

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Mark Mander
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From: Dunstable ,Bedfordshire.
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 - posted December 19, 2009 11:38 AM      Profile for Mark Mander   Email Mark Mander   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The thing with recording on any stripe to remember is that the GS1200 recordings will vary as well,My first print of the Goldeneye extract i re-recorded was great on track two but track one was very low and disapointing so i took it over to Mr Elmo(Kevin Faulkner) and he tried it on his machine and it was superb,my latest GS gives lovely recordings but i've had the odd German print that has given problems,a test on the leader is always advised...Mark.

--------------------
Elmo GS1200 1.0 lens
Elmo ST1200HD 1.1 lens
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Elmo 16CL
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Lance Alspaugh
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Posts: 152
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 19, 2009 09:36 PM      Profile for Lance Alspaugh   Email Lance Alspaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Happy Holidays Gentlemen,

I have been following this post carefully. Indeed I provided Chip with the remix on his "Jurrasic" print. We spent several hours trying to align the sound head on the GS to get a high quality track on both the Main and Balance Stripe.

I have been reluctant to post any sort of negative post in regard to this great hobby that has tried so hard to survive in the Digital Age. In an effort to advise the members of the Forum and perhaps other collectors observing, I must concure that the new German Prints, and most of the new Derann Prints do not have high quality magnetic stripes. Many of the German prints have magnetic stripes that are easily removed with a thumbnail and do not provide high fidelity or in some cases sound that is acceptable. In a few cases we have found them to be unrecordable. We have 3 GS 1200 Ver 3 machines and they all do an outstanding job on the 30+ year old prints on the Main and Balance. The German prints and many of the new Derann Prints contain physically poor magnetic stripes in which bumps, uneven application and other defects are visible to the naked eye. This of course causes the fidelty and reproduction to suffer tremendously with drop outs, noise, static, imbalanced playback and overall lack of fidelity. I have on occassion been able to achieve a better remix on a Sankyo Stereo 800 but do not use this machine due to the lack of speed adjustment and the time involved to obtain a complete remixed sound track. A new reel received from Steve Osborne of "Tomorrow Never Dies", also from Germany, to our surprise produced sensational results on both tracks. So apparently the German lab has been working to improve their methods in producing the new mag stripe formula. We receive several reels from Steve throughout the year and we will post future improvements to the mag tracks here.

As for this collector, until we see a clear improvement in the quality of the mag stripes, I have ceased purchasing new S8 Prints and have sold off many of the prolematic prints due to the inability to re-record a high quality sound track. I have found that Super 8 showings pleases audiences best with remixed sound, and even some of our rather faded prints are far more enjoyable to watch with a crisp, clear remixed sound track compared to the noisey, muddy and low fidelty reproduction on these newer prints. I take no pleasure reporting this, but these are the facts.

I would guess that the German Lab and certainly the hard working gents at Derann bust their behind to put out the best quality possible for the small group of remaining collectors of S8 and the unavailability of proper magnetic stripe machines and chemicals is a reality that may not be able to be improved much more than is currently available.

LA

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 19, 2009 10:08 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Part 1:

To everyone:

I feel obligated respond now that Lance has written.

First off all, THANK YOU to Lance for reading all of this and taking the time to write.

Secondly, I wish to point out some important stuff here. Because I really don't know what I am going to do; or even if I am going to do anything about this problem.

a) It took me a long time, due to my hectic schedule, to preview the print after Lance sent it back to me. This exceeded any given warranty that Lance had given me.

b) Lance made it perfectly clear to me this print could have been problematic, as German prints sometimes are. He promised he would do his best for me, and I believe this to be true.

c) I have not yet contacted Lance regarding this problem, as I have been slow to decide what I am going to do. As earlier posts suggest, I may end up doing nothing, and when I want to hear this movie in stereo sound, I can project the DVD - or I can play the super 8 print in mono two track for the fun of running the print.

d) At no time have I intended for this to be a complaint about Lance and the quality of the work he does with super 8 recordings.

Thank you Lance for helping me out with the first recording. And thank you again for responding here above.

There really is no set direction this is headed. But I want it clear and understood, it is NOT headed negative to Lance or his associates.

Thank you for listening.

end of Part 1 above

Begin Part 2 below:

Saturday December 19 2009

To further investigate the problem with my print of JP, I have spent 3 hours running the worst part of the record through several ST1200HD machines, and I have confirmed the original recording with the same sequence via the DVD using the same sound system in my proijection booth. The following breaks it down:

THE FOOTAGE IN QUESTION:
1200 foot reel 2 of 3
Original film reels 3 & 4 (7 @ 600')

There is echo in dialogue. The talking also does not come from center channel in normal prologic enhanced mode. The main dialogue seems stronger from right channel. Switching st1200 to dual track aux out to prologic and rotating track knob confirms dialogue stronger on right channel as balance stripe.

The scene where the bad guy who steals the embryo in the shave cream can says something about the computer running a program and informs some stuff might be shutting down for a few minutes - has the worst echo. Earlier in this reel the dialogue about dinosaur droppings has echo. Later in the reel the T-Rex attack sequence plays without echo - but is still strong in right channel. Switching modes in stero pro logic (enhanced off; effect off; etc) does not change much of the quality. Only when I put the st1200 in dual track mono via aux out to Pro Logic does the sound come from the center channel.

Earlier on the rewind bench, while prepping the reel. I noticed to small very fine hair like strings on the reel. My worst suspicion prooved to be true - in the sequence of dinosaur droppings - the balance stripe is coming off the print. There is a 4 inch section that is very obvious of this problem. Checking the other reels appears to be OK.

So Lance if you read this please contact me. Maybe I can send the print to you and you can redo this in single track mono. Atleast maybe this will be the best way all things considered.

And because warranty expired due in part of my taking so long to check the print, I will pay you for doing this again.

end of part 2 above

Chip Gelmini

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Lance Alspaugh
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Posts: 152
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 19, 2009 10:16 PM      Profile for Lance Alspaugh   Email Lance Alspaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Chip,

Not to worry my freind. You certainly said nothing that was offensive or insulting and I found your post only factual. I understand your frustration with the sound problem. As much as I want to support the new prints and am in a financial position to do so, I cannot unless some headway is achieved in the production of high quality stripes. These new prints are very pricey and the consumer must get what they pay for.

LA

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 19, 2009 10:29 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lance can you atleast re-do the sound in single track mono?

That'd be great and I expect to pay for this to be redone. The way I understand it, the wartranty expired. I would atleast like to get rid of the echo problem. I am perfectly fine with the print being mono sound...everything on track 1 main stripe.

chip g

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Lance Alspaugh
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Posts: 152
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 20, 2009 12:45 AM      Profile for Lance Alspaugh   Email Lance Alspaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chip,

I remember your print was very problematic. I suggest you send ONE REEL for a test at our expense. We will redo the whole reel and send it back to you. If you are happy we can discuss the redo. Would rather not get the whole print until you are sure.

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