8mm Forum: what to do with red prints?

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Topic: what to do with red prints?

Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 29, 2013 09:44 PM

Do we just bin them? Seriously....what use do we collectors have for prints that have completely lost all color save for red? Certainly one wouldn't expect friends and/or family to actually sit through a film that was devoid of any color.

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 30, 2013 12:25 AM

KIds will watch them and not care. They will think that is the way they were made like that. If it is a really good rare title I will all ways keep it till I find another.

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted January 30, 2013 12:48 AM

Although most of my collection is low-fade or Technicolor I do have some faded titles I still enjoy watching. Titles I have faded are Airport(actually brownish & scope), 2 Minute Warning(scope), Jaws 2(scope),stop motion trailer reel,Safety Second(Tom & Jerry),Millionaire Droopy(scope),Guns for San Sebastian, last reel(15 minutes) of 3 Worlds of Gulliver, and more I can't remember. I would never think of tossing them in the trash.

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 30, 2013 02:14 AM

I always wondered if a light cyan filter wouldn't help neutralize an obnoxiously red print. Anyone ever try it? I know it can't bring back faded colors I just wondered if it would make it more like a sepia print.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted January 30, 2013 02:46 AM

I've found that a combination of a yellow & blue gel certainly make
the print watchable. Blue on its own does make it look colourless
but the added yellow helps on flesh tones & foliage.

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted January 30, 2013 06:42 AM

Many of the Ken digests that have lost color, still have good strong images, and are still great to watch on film. In my 30-plus year of collecting, I've probably actually had to throw away less than 10 films, due to fading or wear-and-tear.

The faded ones were Universal 8, and some scenes in those particular digests were so red it made my eyes bleed. But they were very few. Most of my old digests are still very watchable.

James.

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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2013 07:00 AM

I disagree about showing kids faded prints of older films. If they really think they were made like that, they will have less respect for older films....less inclination to catch some of them and to enjoy them and will bad mouth them to friends. I never show to young people...and in fact ANY audience, any film I have to apologize for..or a film whose color or focus or whatever would lead a first time viewer to disparage the film. Letting kids think the films were made that way is a really bad idea.

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Alex Goedert
Junior
Posts: 13
From: Esch-sur-Alzette, Luxembourg
Registered: Dec 2012

posted January 30, 2013 07:28 AM

It seems Wittner from Germany have a special filter you can use to still somehow enjoy films that are faded. It seems a bit expensive but i still think i will give it a try next month, when my budget has recovered.

Take care,
Alex

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2013 07:29 AM

The late John Black had the similar idea, to filter a tinted cyan gel (much like the hi-hat lighting procedure), so the colors might regain some of their original vibrancy. Might suggest one step further, combine red, blue and green (Tosco Lighting has several gels with a variance in color), there is a primary mix which, if filtered properly might restore a gone-red print - My feeling is NEVER to junk ANY prints, even those that are dark - In the course of tech, we might come up with the way to bring back what was faded - Color was not lost only faded - Now, stupid as it is, can certain shorts for example be re-photographed on color-stock? - As a tag, most of the CASTLE travelogue series still maintain original colors, with a sieve, cleaning and storage properly - Beleive me, it works for the most part - Bottom line; Please don't discard old prints, someday you'll know why and appreciate the fact that you did - Shorty

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2013 08:10 AM

There are some prints you show to company, there are others you watch by yourself.

There are some you look at often, there are some you only watch when you're tired of seeing the ones you watch often.

Red prints, and bad prints in general are option "B" in both cases, especially if you really like the movie.

When you start getting down to bad prints of bad movies it's better to give them away and open up some shelf space.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted January 30, 2013 09:20 AM

I think we just have to know where to draw the line when showing to an audience. We don't want to give film a bad name, but unless the picture is very red, colorless, and faded, most people still like the look of film anyway.

I think I have less tolerance for a film that is noticably soft-focus, or poor sound. In my opinion those types of prints are just hard to enjoy.

James.

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Richard Bock
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 239
From: El Cerrito,CA,USA
Registered: Jan 2010

posted January 30, 2013 09:22 AM

Truthfully, I can't watch a red print for longer than a minute. It hurts my eyes and gives me a slight headache. Luckily I've had no problems selling or trading these films for black and white movies.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2013 09:51 AM

quote:
if they really think they were made like that, they will have less respect for older films....

Gary, so you have an assumption if the kids watch those old films with simple special EFX they would compared with today's CGI and less respect to older films?

I just did a marathon screening to my kids with those old fun racing films. No matter the special EFX was to simple they were just like it.

Kids don't care with the color because they focus on the story.

quote:
It seems Wittner from Germany have a special filter you can use to still somehow enjoy films that are faded.

They are expensive (really! 119,83 EUR., approx. $175.00)

Doug has once made a review on that, and you can see the result here:

Product Review: Color Rebalance Filter

The filter will not work for very red print. It make the film to become cyan.

The result shown on the above review was just the same with those fileter I bought from Ebay for $18.

--------------------
Winbert

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2013 11:35 AM

What about all I said?

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted January 30, 2013 12:19 PM

Joe, I think your idea is the way to go. Different film stocks fade in different ways - just compare early Eastmancolor reddish to late 60s/early 70s pink with late 70s brown. So a single expensive filter is not necessarily going to look good with all types of fade.

So, I think your idea of using gels is a low-cost, highly flexible alternative to a ridiculously expensive filter.

And little new film is being made. Don't toss anything projectable, I agree. If you can't stand it, sell it on fleaBay for 99c.

[ January 30, 2013, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Bill Brandenstein ]

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Zechariah Sporre
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 557
From: Ladysmith, WI U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2010

posted January 30, 2013 12:27 PM

I don't think any true film collecter should ever keep a red print. They should ship them all to me :-) seriously though. I personally don't mind watching red prints from time to time. I would get sick of them if I watched them the majority of the time but I'm not to picky about print quality. Obviously.

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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010

posted January 30, 2013 12:32 PM

I would rather have red than nothing. I can always upgrade when another print comes along. [Embarrassed]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted January 30, 2013 12:32 PM

I agree on the cyan filter, it can do wonders with a fading print, (but not too faded as then, it basically looks like a sepia tone print).

It ticks me off, i had a lovely glass wheel that was absolutely awesome, it had the whole color spectrum all round it, not overly brilloina t colors, and I used an old bunsen burner as the thing it was connected to and I'd put it in front of the lense and then just turned the wheel about until I came to the perfect adjustment for the optimum color. Basically, it was like the knob on old TV's that allowed you to adjust the tint of the TV image, and it worked brilliantly ...

and for the life of me, I can't find the danged thing! (GRRRR!)

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 30, 2013 01:12 PM

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in watching even 30 seconds of a red print, nor would I inflict it on any audience of any age.
However, Brad, there is a market for these prints, as you can tell from some of the responses here, so why not sell them off cheaply??

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 30, 2013 01:30 PM

I have a confession. I hate red color, it's my enemy. I worked in a commercial photo-lab for years, and do digital restoration/retouching on the side. Most of my color prints were purchased in the 80's and virtually none were LLP. The second my first color prints showed signs of beginning to warm, I sold them all faded or not. I just couldn't handle the idea of sitting and watching my color catalog slip away from me.

Red doesn't just represent a shift in color it's the loss of other colors, and the loss of the range of contrast and details that the other colors comprised. When yellow and blue are gone only the ghost of red content in those details remain.

I agree with most here that say that film has a quality that video doesn't match, but only when it's color is sound, it's the ratio of which the film was originally projected, and it's not a multi-generational dupe. If not, then in IMO you're better off projecting a DVD or better yet Blu-ray of the film in question.

I will now put on my raincoat to duck the rotten fruit and vegetables. [Smile]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 30, 2013 01:55 PM

quote:
I agree with most here that say that film has a quality that video doesn't match, but only when it's color is sound, it's the ratio of which the film was originally projected, and it's not a multi-generational dupe. If not, then in IMO you're better off projecting a DVD or better yet Blu-ray of the film in question.

Timothy,

I totally agree.

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 30, 2013 03:34 PM

Well, there is something about showing imagery in the same format in which it was shot, picture-by-picture image-by-image.

So I guess the question would be, at what point are you betraying the art for the medium on which it's being presented. I'd say red color definitely fits that bill.

However, it works two ways. There is a new Blu-way of WHITE ZOMBIE that just came out yesterday, and sadly the lab that did the HD transfer chose to filter the image to waxy over-processed mess. They also included as an extra the "raw" transfer of the film with no adjustments at all. To me the raw version is infinitely more desirable and film-like.

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 30, 2013 04:05 PM

Gary and you guys I agree with Winbert. Most little kids don't look at the colors like a dog is seeing in black or white kids only see the story. When I was a kid I first only watched TV in Black and white Superman 1940 Cartoons till I grew up I never new they were in color. My parents bought this screen that was going to make the tv into color . Maybe you older guys can remember that . You don't need to buy a high priced Tv. Anyway it made the whole TV movie red. Wow I thought as a kid I have a color TV! When I show movies that are red to kids no one questions it. I never hear why is that cartoon red or why are the people not flesh tone etc. The kids just laugh and get into the story.

--------------------
" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009

posted January 30, 2013 04:24 PM

I don't throw away my red prints. I wait until I find a better copy. I also use red prints to test different projectors sound and to see if the film is getting scratched. I have a 200' sound version of BORN FREE that is so red and faded that there is hardly any image left...but it sounds good and has no lines. I could also use it for testing the recording funtions.

I just have a hard time throwing any film away!

Bill [Smile]

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted January 30, 2013 05:31 PM

I have bought in a red print of a favourite film, and corrected the
colour with gels, sometimes unwittingly, but if its a film I want,
thankfully not too many, I will put up with it until replaced.I have
three features on 16mm of "JASON & THE ARGONAUTS", one that
couldn't be any redder, one that is passable and the other a
stunning colour print.Has anyone noticed that the red prints are
usually the prints without a mark on them.

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