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Topic: Advice required RE projection and destruction
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Jake Mayes
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Bath, UK
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 15, 2013 06:54 PM
If he is doing it for this purpose it might be very intresting... I would say take say a metre of film, thread it in the projector and splice it in a loop. Maybe expose the film to extreme heat (such as a hair dryer or fan heater) this WILL cause damage to the projector lamp in the long run, or acetone will destroy film, in an 'interesting way' but would probably ignite upon reaching the gate due to the heat of the lamp. Or maybe splice a longer loop of film and have some of it in a place far from the projector and over a container full of acetone, the loop still running through the projector. the vapours will very quickly begin to degrade the acetate base. I cannot speak for polyester film, but it might affect the dyes. Make sure you take fire precautions, acetone vapours will 'trail' and it is very flammable. I bear no responsibility, take all precautions and comply with any laws in your area. Have the loop say 10 seconds long looping the same scene with the acetone method, will be interesting to watch the scene loop and slowly be destroyed.
Another way would be to have some fine grit sandpaper and have it contacting the base and emulsion as it is running through, will be 'interesting'. Use a junker projector due to particles that might come off in the projector. ways of slowly (over several minutes) degrading or damaging gelatin would be another idea. Bleach i would not advise unless using a junker projector and at high temperatures can release chlorine gas (projector gate/lamp). Use a junker and scratching projector for this experiment, do not ruin a good one!
Sounds like sacrilege i know, but it can be interesting with a junker film. For fun i have creatively found ways to destroy bits worthless vinyl, reel to reel tape and cassettes, and film to see how much punishment they can take. With vinyl the best one was a vintage turntable with a damaged stylus and heavy tracking, you could watch it wear the groove with funky results, or using a sharp knife to 'play' the record, having it attatched to a thin magnet and coil and wiring this up to a tape decks' head input. Hissy, funky but interesting result, and you could hear the music playing on the knife.
With tape its about weaking the binder, or in the case of MP tapes oxidizing the metal as well. The base in the case of acetate tape.
With film it is about damaging either the base, emulsion, dyes or reacting/removing silver in the case of B/W. Creatively reacting the dyes to fade them is a good idea as well, you can buy film bleach, that can be used with the older generations of coupler-based film that slowly bleaches the dyes. (Wittners velvia 50 would fit the bill for this nicely, E100D i doubt. household bleach would do just that as well, to any film. Careful of water and electricity. Or have a lit candle near the film which will slowly begin to degrade it! Or if you can get your hands on some old kodachrome film, many old 3 min movies exist on the bay on kodachrome, a BRIGHT HOT high-intensity lamp or flame pointed at the film not close enough to melt will fade the dyes within an hour, it had a rapid fade time under light (especially projection, with super 8 this normally did not matter as each frame is exposed to the lamp for a tiny period of time the film is in the gate, coupled with the shutter giving protection, especially a 3 blade shutter), but had extreme dark and chemical stability.
That is my two cents, hope you find the information useful, and satisfying for your needs. I would not destroy a cart of film i had shot personally, the carts are expensive and it is a waste, but a common digest for a quid or so in a junker projector? fun fun fun. Or maybe put say a 500+ watt bulb that is many times more powerful in place of the original bulb and wire it to an external supply. Use kodachrome and you might get some fun results. 18 fps and a 2-blade shutter to boot if possible. I am an analog guy in every way, and have for fun searched the weaknesses of the mediums! If you use sound film as icing on the cake have a permant magnet near the magnetic strip but not too close, say just under an inch (test first) with every pass the sound would degrade.
I say go the acetone vapor route or sandpaper route, taking needed precautions. or soak a cotton bud or cotton roller in bleach and have the film pass over it, ventilating the area!! means it keeps the film damp but not dripping wet in bleach. USE VENTILATION.
Play safe!
P.S Don't take this the wrong way guys, i carefully look after my films and audio/video tape and vinyl, alot of the tape and film containing unique and sentemental content, but it is nice and fun to know the weaknesses in any recording medium, for experiments like this. I have yet to try bathing a B/W print in acetone or a colour print (stills) in bleach for example, but it is on my list to try, for fun. I ensure very little money is spent.
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Jake Mayes
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Bath, UK
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 15, 2013 07:25 PM
I fully understand that, i edited my post with a P.S. He is not onto destroying large quantities of film, either and if someone wishes to spend money on creatively destroying something, thats up to them. I personally would never do it to anything important, i like to experiment and i have done, but its been for educational, i would never do this on any large scale. I have carefully documented family history as art on many different mediums over the past decade of my life, settling on film as the primary medium, and each medium i have tested, CDs and hard drives included. harming nothing sentimental in the way. I am just answering his question in depth, whats life without experimenting! Watching something slowly being 'degraded' can be classed as an art in itself, just like cutting a photo up and sticking it as a collage. The likes of the BBC destroyed half their film archives... I do care for my film and other collections, keep equipment clean and maintained to ensure they are safe, sometimes going to extreme lengths to look after my collection, just clarifying that point. If someone wants to creatively destroy film doesn't make them any more destructive than a collage made from say cutting up and sticking a magazine or photo.
+1 on the nitrate film one, taking extreme caution and doing it outside away from anything flammable, as a nitrate fire cannot be put out by usual means. I wouldn't go as far as to say that this is only done by people who have never had a creative thought for art, who is anyone to judge that or what forms art take? Even if it involves 'destruction', all it is doing is changing energy, even exposing and developing film does just that. Art is just an expression of energy and vibration. Yes i do see art in such a deep way, and it can take many forms. Music, images, drawings, paintings, collage, the lot. And i cannot draw to my satisfaction, hence me using photography and the characteristics of reversal film and other darkroom tools and methods with many types of film to express my feelings in creativity, the loss of 100D upset me for this reason, a surreal experience can be created with film at reasonable cost. I home process for even more control over this. good thing we have wittner. I love velvia, and cannot wait to shoot a V50 cart, as velvia slides are amazing and i have the means to adjust the colour pallette using the FD time, bringing out greens, or deepening the blues, or both... Some ways of altering home processing can be seen as destructive, one of my films was processed at 41C for its own look and colour bias, would 'ruin' the film in a lab's eyes but did what i wanted to do for art for that particular shoot and film. intense saturation and contrast, coupled with a warm golden like colour bias gives such a spiritual surreal look. I record any experiments in this aspect. I plan on doing a home processing write up for specific colour biases/colour saturations i record but the cost of reversal film limits me in this respect, for little more than clip tests then to use it on a final product. Some recording artists used to cut up their tapes and splice them together to make art and then work this into the master. Destroys the tape for any other purpose? yes. Worked for their purpose of expression? yes.
Art is art. Everything is of our own creation, whatever form it takes.
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 03:24 AM
Winbert,these people are using the hobby, as a vandal uses a wall
with spray paint, and you're wishing them good luck!
Anyone that destroys something and calls it "Art", is akin to a
child pulling legs off insects and calling it fun.Pathetic.
You're missing my point Jake, I DON'T want precautions taken,
it will be an interesting experiment watching all those people
making for the exits as the fire takes hold,think of all the pretty
colours those flames will make.
[ January 16, 2013, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]
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Jake Mayes
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Bath, UK
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 06:36 AM
Comparing this to adolf hitler is the most ridiculous thing i have read in a while... I don't want this to turn into a right/wrong debate, he wanted information and i gave it. from what he described as well he is looping and destroying a single roll of film, I don't see the problem, it is ONE roll. Not 'something of worth', he is buying something for an intended purpose, how many people sell their family movies on ebay to make a few bob? that is what i would call destructive in the way of being disrespectful. If he wished to buy a reel of film, regardless of what was on it, if the contents meant nothing to him and obviously didn't to the seller, and he was using it for an intended purpose (slowly destroy by chemical or physical means and document it in progress), why not? it would only sit and rot for several years until the base or dyes degraded in most cases if both parties cared not about the contents... Get over it... He is harming no one or anyones collections in the process.
That sort of thing can be interesting... My belief in any subject is do what you want, but harm nobody, animal, plant or human. Comparing this to adolf hitler who helped cause millions of deaths is out of context... I am not pushing anyone to agree, but comparing to adolf hitler?... really that is going a bit far. Why not just help the guy rather than moan? I baby my film collection as i have said, so am i destructive towards film in general? Don't take what he is trying to do out of context, if he did the same to an audiotape, videotape, hard drive, or CD would you still be complaining? He politely asked for advice. He was not rude, and he doesn't deserve to be compared to adolf hitler!
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 07:06 AM
Jake, I think you're on the wrong forum, if some people get their
thrills destroying things, fine, but the members of this forum
spend their time trying to preserve film.Like I said before, all this
sort of clowning about was done in the '60s,and it was boring then.I fully support Martin and his views, especially in not getting
too involved in what is a stupid post to begin with.
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Jake Mayes
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Bath, UK
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 07:32 AM
I understand your view, however I do not think I am on the wrong forum, i have discussed some good things on this forum, and it is a great community dedicated to film. He posted this in 8mm general, for all 8mm discussion is it not? yes the idea is boring for some, but remember he has been asked specifically by a client to do this as well. I understand why you disagree, but the fate of a single roll of film shouldn't be a concern and it would have been much more polite to help the guy, while stating your opinions if you wanted that you do not like the idea of it being destroyed. It is not suggesting the destruction of people collections, film in general, or anything else for that matter. it is about a single roll or two and an attempt to find a creative way to slowly degrade the film with people watching. Two rolls at most, that is it. It may have been boring in the 60s but remember its a new generation of people we are discussing. I do not know the age of sam mind... Curiosity is not a sin... I am only 18, myself. I have seen many in college fascinated, and i know more people with turntables than CDs, for example. Some people are bound to want to experiment with these things. And who can help them better than the generation who grew up with it?
Maybe i shouldn't be writing so many replies dedicated to this, but it is just i can see no harm in what he is doing, the adolf hitler argument took what he was doing and my comments well out of of context. It turned a civilised discussion and debate to something quite the opposite. I will not keep trying to press this point, i have other stuff i need to do and would rather contribute to other topics now i have given my contribution to this one.
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 08:23 AM
Jake, at your tender age you have much to learn about all the
things life has in store for you.On this very forum, there are many
learned people who will help you along the way in this hobby of
ours, people who spend time, effort and money on trying to keep
films free from damage and keeping very tired projectors in good
repair.Me, I'm a builder by trade,and it saddens me when I see
beautiful buildings demolished to make way for the Lego sets
they call modern building these days, I DON'T take delight in
wanton destruction of anything, to build or create something
from nothing is an art, not thinking of ways to destroy.Sticking
sandpaper on film projectors or soaking films in alkaline is not
art or clever.Far better to learn how to create on film,not harm
it.Perhaps Sam should join a science class and study how film
is made up.
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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted January 16, 2013 10:33 AM
I don’t post on here very often, so am wary of dropping a post into a controversial thread, but I can see both sides of this argument and there are striking parallels with posts that I see on the vintage VW forums I frequent. When anyone goes on there announcing that they have just bought a strikingly original 50 year old VW and they’re going to put a big engine in it and lower it all hell breaks loose!
However, I think it is a bit different here. Sam has a very clear plan of what he intends to do, it isn’t a piece of art that I would be rushing to see but on the other hand I think it sounds interesting and, as we have already seen, thought provoking! I would even go as far as to say that the premise of creating an interactive piece that brings the viewer’s attention to today’s disposable approach to the capture of the moving image is inspired.
It seems that there will be a very small amount of film involved in this project, no great loss to the massive stock that is out there, and I’m hoping that the projector used will be some nasty little Boots jobby that would destroy any film that is run through it for any length of time anyway.
And who knows, it might even raise some interest in the existence of reel film?
Just my thoughts.
Mike ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...
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Jake Mayes
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 119
From: Bath, UK
Registered: Sep 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 10:53 AM
Glad it helped with your quest sam, hope your project works out!
Hugh i understand about buildings, i feel the same way about buildings, but it is the discretion of the owner, forced destruction is another matter than i think breaches free will in a serious way, good on the guy who refused to let his house be destroyed for heathrow? runway until they paid him a nice $10 million sum.
Film is a great creative art medium, and sam's use of it is using it in an unorthadox but creative way to achieve his goal. People on this forum are great to discuss film with, and there are many good topics in discussion. From what it seems he is not into film as we are, but still wished to use it for a creative purpose. I do not think we can agree on this point.
I think highly of the people who lovingly maintain their collections and projectors, i do just the same, i clean my projectors after every showing to reduce the chances of scratching, as lines I am not a fan of on film. We are having another full family showing of my granddads movies, over 12 hours worth and the effort put into ensuring they are well looked after and preventing damage to the film is high. If someone wishes to use film in an unorthadox way, which results in the destruction of the medium at the end of it, that is up to them, personally i think that can be quite interesting and have done just that in the past for an audience. Just as the beatles and many other artists cut up recording tape and spliced it back together in random orders. Destroys the tape for any other purpose and once mastered tapes like that were usually discarded. Freaking out over the damage to sam's film was going a bit far, it is serving an artistic purpose, even if it wasn't and was just an experiment, which i think this is a combination of both, so what? No one is getting hurt. Me and hugh will not agree on this point, nor do i expect him to, he is entitled to his own opinion, i agree with his point on building destruction, especially forced destruction. If the owner wishes to destroy and have his building rebuilded it is up to him. The thought of seeing properties empty for decades then destroyed when there are homeless people i think is much worse of a problem than a destroyed roll of film, more than i can express in a post.
I like mike's post, couldn't put it better myself. i also suggested to use a cheap and nasty type projector that damages film over time. Mind you the prinz models are cheap and IF looked after i saw no damage after looping film for 5 minutes (a 10 second piece). I have one as a secondary projector and it does the job well! And who knows might draw people into reel film as mike said ![[Smile]](smile.gif) And i was thinking about the 1399 post count as well!
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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God
Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted January 16, 2013 11:31 AM
Well the way I see it Winbert, is that film to me is "sacred cow"
I don't like the idea of neither film or equipment being abused.
All this talk of "art" is fine, then why come on a film forum for
advice on how to destroy something we all cherish.Simple
experimentation would have sufficed, I think there was more to
it than that,but in plain speaking,how can you weep and wail at the demise of filmstocks and then condone the destruction of
same for "art".If they are so interested in art,then create something, they're as artistic as the average arsenist.
As for buildings for the homeless, in the UK, there are thousands of homes empty,streets of them because polititians
thoughtfully removed places of work for people abroad,thus
creating "ghost towns",but hammer on about the homeless
who are in fact people who shouldn't be here to start with.
No the buildings I referred to are the old cinemas, libraries etc
that have style and workmanship in them,bulldozed for a bloody
supermarket.
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