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Topic: Beaulieu Top Sprocket Pictures for Andrew Woodcock.

Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted February 18, 2014 03:09 AM

Hi Andrew, regarding your email, please see the following pictures;

Just checked the service manual and the metal cover above the top sprocket is simply referred to as "Upper sprocket cover".

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 18, 2014 08:43 AM

Thanks Rob, I have replied again via a PM. I will try to send you some photographs of the section in question on my machine but I may have to do this by mail as I have never had any success in being able to post photographs on the forum despite reformatting them the correct size etc. I just keep getting "Bad Getaway 505" messages. If ok with you Rob, please PM me your mail address. Thanks again, Andrew.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 18, 2014 12:21 PM

As I have a Beaulieu it would be interesting to hear about this issue.

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Maurice

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Belgium
Registered: Nov 2009

posted February 18, 2014 01:03 PM

Same here. Also a Beaulieu user and glad to help out.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 18, 2014 04:22 PM

Great news everyone! I will elaborate when i am off my nightshifts. Thanks to Alexander and Maurice in the meantime.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 20, 2014 05:40 AM

Ok as promised, after a long hard nightshift I managed to have another look at the Beaulieu filmpath which at the moment is causing an intermittent occasional scratch I think to the emulsion side of the film.

The wear line, when seen, can be found two thirds approximately to the right of the projected picture (more towards the balance stripe in other words).

My first thoughts at the time of writing to Rob, was that it may have been due to the metal guard covering the tip of the top sprocket as shown in Robs first photo.

Having re-evaluated the situation, this is definitely not the case because as Rob correctly points out, the film never goes close (within 2mm)to touching the metal guard or shield.

On further examination using a magnifying illuminated lens, I discovered there are some small surface scratches to my black plastic top sprocket guide.(The guide as illustrated in the second photo of Rob's).

I am willing to change out this part as a precaution to see where that takes me, but before I do, I would be most grateful for any input on the adjustment made to this guide by any other users ie Maurice or Alexander or any other Beaulieu owners.

The plastic guide, I just discovered, has an adjusting screw fitted to the front of it allowing the guide to be pulled down slightly away from the sprocket if necessary. This,in turn, would allow the plastic guide to also rest slightly away from the very first roller that guides the film into the said plastic guide.

My theory is, that if this guide was designed to be adjusted at some stage, then is this to allow for when the guide has worn slightly to keep the inner channel of the guide well away from the travelling film? This would also concur with the scratches occurring on emulsion side.

As I know for fact that the scratching is occurring before the sound head section, the only other point of contact for the film is at the gate itself which once again under close examination appears A1 to me. All highly polished film edges on both steel guides appear to have lots of "meat" on them keeping the film frame itself well away from the sunken centre portion where the rivets are etc.

Any advice or help in getting to the bottom of this would be gratefully appreciated and once again a big big thank you to Rob for his assistance in this so far.

[ February 20, 2014, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 21, 2014 05:07 AM

It's quite a mystery.

I just looked at my Beaulieu and see that the black plastic guide is relieved just like an aperture gate. It doesn't seem that the film could be scratched in its picture area at this point

Are you sure it was not the picture gate which at the time of running could have scratched the film due to a build up of something?

I have known adhesive on a film to leave a spot in the gate, I refer to the habit of sticking down the leader, removing the patch, and then not cleaning off the remains of the adhesive.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 21, 2014 05:13 AM

BTW:- The plastic guide on my machine has it's adjusting screw fully unwound so it is inoperative on my machine.

The plastic guide simply sits up against the metal framework lug with the force of the coil spring keeping it there.

Is this the initial factory setting position? Is this how all other Beaulieu owners have there machine set?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 21, 2014 09:33 AM

Andrew has sent me a P.M. as he says the Forum will not let him reply to himself, although I should point that you can always edit your previous posting.

He says that scratching is very, very, intermittent. Some films run a dozen times and remain untouched, whilst others scratch, more or less, in the same place.

The film's emulsion is towards the screen so it certainly points to the lower black retainer, but the puzzle is that not all films are affected.

It could be simply that some of the problem films are slightly warped, or it could be that the two "rails" have worn down and are not protecting the picture area.

It may mean a replacement part from Wittner could solve the problem. I suggest that an email to them asking advice may be of help. They speak English.

http://www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/kontakt/

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 21, 2014 11:45 AM

Thanks Maurice for the reply and the advice but having run the projector all day today (around 8 hours solid) it would now appear to be the black plastic guide as suspected. I adjusted the front screw to relieve the guide slightly from the sprocket by the amount stated in the service manual using double thickness film to obtain the "biting point" as with a feeler gauge.

Since doing this adjustment I have seen absolutely no scratching whatsoever. I know that it is early days yet to draw a line under this issue but I have to say, this is the longest I have been able to run the machine so far without it tearing into a print a some stage.

I have even chanced running a feature through it this afternoon and it went through fine. I rechecked it again just to check there was nothing else happening after the gate but all ok, not a mark in sight.

I think as the machine still has other outstanding issues associated with the stereo internal power amplifier and right V.U. meter, I will now delay getting a new set of guides from Wittners for the time being.

The intermittent amp problem had gone away recently by it's own accord but now wouldn't you know it, it is back again!

Ah well these things are sent to try us, and just like this time last year when I had three months of issues with the Bauer T610, I will follow these issues through till the end even if it kills me!

Thanks for all of your suggestions Maurice, most appreciated, now to put everything away again for one day and face the amp/ V.U. meter issues on another [Frown]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted February 21, 2014 12:56 PM

Hi Andrew, I just had thought about your upload on the beaulieu problem you have encountered, did you check the cog inner edges that would, in my opinion be close to the surface of the film running under it. This could only cause vertical tram lines on the inner edges of the film, or close to the sound stripe and
balance stripe. I'm not sure where this adjusting screw is, does it appear on the two pictures uploaded by rob?. I'm guessing the plastic guide comes off, so access to the front cog could be enough to carefully file any "burr" that could be there and not seen. You could run the projector to get the cog to rotate to do this and not to remove it to do so. I think a mod was done on the elmo gs causing the same problem, where by rubber rollers were installed above the top cog in the guide. With my gs it was done by bill I think, as he did the service on them for derann. I certainly don't want this to happen to any of my features, a very good upload by yourself and rob who are helping us all on the forum in keeping the wheels turning without damaging our precious films. Well done guys.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 21, 2014 01:58 PM

Hello again Paul, some good points raised there Paul but I am almost certain I have found the root cause of my particular scratch problem as I posted earlier this afternoon.

The sprocket you are referring to was immaculately clean with no burrs or irregularities as was all of the entire film path, but if there is a stationary piece of plastic rubbing across the width of the running film frame, it is not surprising that as the different thicknesses of film pass through it including splices etc, that scratches will take place.

It must be remembered that as Maurice points out, the underside of this guide is relieved as can be seen in Rob's second photo with the guide pulled down. But if it has to be adjusted to the thickness of two layers of film leader as the service manual recommends, then at it's fully closed position (as mine was set)
then it is more than likely very close to the actual thickness of the film especially when running the thicker acetate stock and splices are passing through it etc.

I am still holding back all of my Derann prints on this machine for now, but I am 99% sure that the issue of the scratching is now closed out hopefully.

I am still interested to find out where everyone else's adjustment screw is set at for controlling the depth of this guide so please write back once you have had chance to check it.

The screw is located on the end of the guide and you can just see the tip of the screw showing through the guide on Rob's photo close to where his finger is pulling the guide down against it's spring. It is fitted to the inside edge as opposed to the centre and uses the lug on the frame as its jacking point.
(the lug can also be seen on Rob's photo)

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 24, 2014 05:28 AM

Has anyone managed to check where this adjusting screw is set on their machines yet?

It would be most useful information to all of us Beaulieu owners to compare the settings to see if wear to the guide does indeed play a factor on where this adjusting screw finishes up to maintain the double film thickness setting as per the service manual

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 24, 2014 09:51 AM

Andrew
The screw on my Beaulieu's black guide is tightened right up, obviously giving the guide its closest position to the sprocket, perhaps to allow for future wear?

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 24, 2014 10:13 AM

Thanks for the reply Maurice. Hopefully the first of many! That is exactly how mine was prior to adjustment(though I think you mean fully unwound). Still no marking of any films since! Just keep a close eye on that clearance to the underside of the top sprocket then my friend [Smile]

Still sending my machine to Bill Parsons tomorrow to overhaul the power amp electronics and calibrate the right hand side VU Meter. Bill informs me that a real weal link on the electronics used in the amplifier section of these machines are the electrolytes. Very poor quality ones fitted from new and much better ones can be fitted. Hopefully all will be perfect with the machine then, fingers very much crossed!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 24, 2014 10:38 AM

Andrew
It's a question of phrase!
The screw cannot be tightened anymore. The only way to turn it now would be to unscrew it which would open the guide more.
Am I clear?

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 24, 2014 11:00 AM

That's not how it is on mine Maurice. The screw starts out in life fully unwound so that the plastic guide sits as close to the top sprocket and threading roller as possible. Then by adjusting the screw, Tightening it into the guide so some of the the jacking screw shows through the inside of the guide, then the screw only rests on the frames lug, not the plastic guide as is the case to begin with. Is yours not the same Maurice? Remember you are tightening the screw from upside down so you do have to turn it in the opposite direction than if it were fitted normal side up. By tightening the screw, I mean to screw inwards, it is a standard M2 right handed thread type screw, nothing special. Hope this makes sense [Smile]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 24, 2014 02:50 PM

Andrew
Had another look, and I think I was wrong in what I said.
In its present position on mine the screw head is tight against the lug on the sprocket shoe. The thread itself on the other side is at its maximum length.
In this position the shoe is at its maximum distance away from the sprocket.
If the screw head is unlocked away from its present position, the visible length on its far side will decrease, thus allowing the sprocket shoe to move closer to the sprocket.
It's a great pity that Rob's photo does not show this important item.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 24, 2014 04:38 PM

Very true Maurice but at least now we are all aware of it's existence. I just wish I had read about it or even knew it existed before my machine wrecked about £200 pounds worth of film and that was by me being cautious as ever when obtaining a new(to me)machine.

Keep the posts coming everyone regarding your machine settings on this or any other vital parts on these. I know Alexander will reply once he has had chance to check his machine out as it is in storage at the moment.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted February 25, 2014 01:51 AM

Here it is. Yes on my machine it is also fully tightened into place, giving the guide maximum distance from the sprocket.

The service manual reads;

"Adjustment of the film guide of take up and feeding devices - Take a piece of film of 50 cm, cut the perforations. bend it in two, and insert it between the feeding device and film guide, then screw or unscrew the adjusting screw to find the adjustment where the double thickness of the film is at the limit of the pinching."

I don't think the translation is the best, but, yes, basically it seems you adjust it so that it happily takes a double thickness of film.

Sorry to hear about the other issues, but do persist as they are fabulous machines when working properly.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted February 25, 2014 02:25 AM

Rob
Thank you for a great photo which shows the part to which we are referring.
The position of the screw on my Beaulieu is exactly as shown.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 25, 2014 04:20 AM

Fantastic photograph Rob! I am pleased I have now found someone who has the guide wide open. It proves it will still thread and run ok even on its maximum setting so on mine I have a good way to go before the guide is ready for the bin.

I apologize Maurice, as I got the wrong end of the stick in thinking your machine guide was adjusted fully closed as mine WAS when it was scratching. It just goes to show, a picture, as they say, can paint a thousand words!

You are so right Rob, I love this machine despite all the anxiety it has already caused me simply because its picture quality is truly stunning, especially on 2 blade shutter mode (when it isn't scratching film! ha ha).

Now I am over that hopefully I just pray UPS do their bit with care, then it is down to the fabulous Mr Parsons! Hopefully should be back in cinema heaven in around three weeks time!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted February 25, 2014 06:06 AM

It hasn't been adjusted on mine for years. In-fact I don't ever remember altering it, so I guess it has always been in this position.

And, there doesn't appear to be any wear on the guides (certainly not significant) despite quite a lot of use over the last few years.

I don't think the "double film thickness" setting is the most precise advice on Beaulieu's part; I mean, double thickness acetate or polyester? LOL! [Big Grin]

Anyway as Maurice concurs, it seems to work fine in the fully tightened position. I reckon you've definitely fixed the scratching problem, Andrew.

Best of luck sorting out the other issues and let us know in a few weeks how it turns out.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted February 25, 2014 07:07 AM

Will do Rob of course, and once again thanks for all of your help to both me and hopefully many others in the future with this slight but potentially very costly problem, after all we all really only get one shot at looking after these prints nowadays.

[ February 25, 2014, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted February 25, 2014 03:46 PM

Hi Andrew, Just checked mine, and its the same as the last picture uploaded by rob, with the adjustment screw fully wound out. The one thing I did notice was the amount of spring pressure on the black sprocket cover, so I'm not surprised it scratched your film mate, it does not seem that high quality either, sad really considering how so many of us have these highly praised machines. I'm pleased however with a successful conclusion to the problem you had.

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