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Author Topic: The HIGH PRICE of this hobby
David Baker
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Hamilton , Ohio
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted November 10, 2014 09:21 PM      Profile for David Baker   Email David Baker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I recently saw a post about someone who wants to bring back NEW Castle - Universal 8 films back , but not hardly anyone replied to the titles they would purchase .
In a way , I can see why .
Who would REALLY pay HUNDREDS of bucks for a 34 min . digest or a 17 min. digest of a film these days when they are almost ALL available in full length format on Blu ray or DVD ?
If you've got a BIG screen HD TV who needs film ? And the HIGH cost of it ??
Now don't get me wrong - I LOVE THIS HOBBY - but let's face it - Films are WAY out of hand with pricing nowadays .
I have traded films for other items with collectors - some in this forum - and ended up being RAPED by their offers - and honesty .
I've seen people on this forum BUY films for 10.00 and sell them for 40.00 , stating " I have to recoup what I've got into it " .
A lot of GREED I see - and opportunity to make a buck off someone's kindness to help them out .
Not to mention the " clique " of forum members here . Many people from all over the planet post here and it just seems like only " certain " ones ever get a response or reaction to their post unless it's from a " buddy " .
How sad ! IT'S NOT JUST FOR YOU " SPECIAL " FEW ! ( WHO REALLY AREN'T THAT SPECIAL )
More recently someone offered me a 4 reel 400' PERFECT COLOR print for 500.00 . Almost as over - priced as the STAR WARS print recently sold on Euro eBay .
And I traded several films and was only offered 24.00 for the whole lot of 3 400' super 8mm sound / color / b&w films and 2 400' and 600' silent B&w films with 2 16mm shorts !!
GET REAL if you want to buy / sell this hobby - people are just not going to pay an arm and a leg for something when NEW technologies have paved the way for a more affordable way to collect this hobby - and knock GREED out of the film - frame .

--------------------
Dave

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Moshe Yitzhak
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 211
From: Israel
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted November 10, 2014 09:57 PM      Profile for Moshe Yitzhak   Email Moshe Yitzhak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can always buy just blu rays for 9.99$ or you may got into the wrong forum.
This is not PAY AS MUCH HD AS IT LOOKS forum.

If you wanna buy cheap s8 films I can refer you to collect abbot and Costello b&w footage.

It will be a waste of time to try to explain to you why certain features can cost up to few hundreds because after reading your post you are in just for an argue.

You don't go into carnivore forum and lecture them that veggie is better. (e.g the blu ray example you just wrote), if that is your argument we're all done here.

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Jason Gronn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 237
From: Boyne Island, Queensland, Australia
Registered: Sep 2013


 - posted November 10, 2014 10:15 PM      Profile for Jason Gronn   Email Jason Gronn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well said Moshe.
I for one am more that happy to pay hundreds if not more for a film.

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David Baker
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Hamilton , Ohio
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted November 10, 2014 10:18 PM      Profile for David Baker   Email David Baker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Who's talking about Blu ray ?
I was just stating about the GREED film collectors seem to have these days that would make a person more interested in another way to collect .
This post is all about FILM . Don't just pick the pieces out to make it look like something else. Unless the shoe fits .

--------------------
Dave

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Jason Gronn
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 237
From: Boyne Island, Queensland, Australia
Registered: Sep 2013


 - posted November 10, 2014 11:19 PM      Profile for Jason Gronn   Email Jason Gronn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David,

Film has always been a expensive and sometimes cruel hobby, but even back in 1990 collecting film was pricey.
Yes it has it's fair share of crooks but l think every hobby has a few.
I cant speak for anyone else but for me l get so much more enjoyment out of film than l do with digital, l dont even go to the cinema anymore since they stopped film l just wait for the bluray release now.

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Moshe Yitzhak
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 211
From: Israel
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted November 10, 2014 11:38 PM      Profile for Moshe Yitzhak   Email Moshe Yitzhak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David, You can check ebay to see the Buyers market when Star Wars or other Derann releases climbes up more than 600-700$ reflects its market and it's Buyer's Market.

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David Baker
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Hamilton , Ohio
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted November 11, 2014 04:36 AM      Profile for David Baker   Email David Baker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gentlemen , YES , I do agree about the seller / buyer market - especially on eBay . STAR WARS is a very popular item and Derann films , as well as Fox and Mountain films are as well . I own a few myself . I too enjoy film OVER digital and have my own " Drive - In " Theater set up in my back yard now , thanks to Steve Osborne of REEL IMAGE magazine . A 12' X 7' GIANT screen that I recently painted with his bright white screen paint ! FANTASTIC !This past Halloween I ran outside :
AN EVENING OF VINCENT PRICE ( an 800' reel consisting of The ORIGINAL Theatrical trailer of HOUSE OF USHER , 200' versions of PIT & PENDULUM , THE RAVEN , MASTER OF THE WORLD and WAR-GODS OF THE DEEP ), DR.PHIBES ( 400' pt.2 ) , THE CONQUEROR WORM ( 400' Derann version ) , VINCENT PRICE TRAILER REEL ( 400' ) , STAR WARS ( 600' combined scenes from Ken Films ) , THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK ( 400' PT. 1 KEN FILMS ) , CLOSE ENCOUNTERS ( 400' reel ) , THE WOLFMAN ( 400' Universal 8 ) , FRANKENSTEIN CONQUERS THE WORLD , KONGA , DESTROY ALL MONSTERS ( 600' Ken Films 3 200' versions ) and Full - Length Feature of Hammer Films' CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN . Was great fun and lasted all night. It even brought my neighbors out whom I never see !
I have been collecting film since the 1960's when my very first projector was a " crank " one and handled 50' reels !
So you see , I have spent THOUSANDS of bucks over the decades on Super 8MM & 16MM films ( I used to collect that format in the late 1970's and early 1980's ).
Being an avid film fan has had it's ups and downs , but overall a great hobby - and expense - but then - what hobby is not ?
Thanks for being civil about this subject gang ; it was just an opinion . [Big Grin]

--------------------
Dave

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John Hourigan
Master Film Handler

Posts: 301
From: Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted November 11, 2014 09:22 AM      Profile for John Hourigan   Email John Hourigan       Edit/Delete Post 
All good points on both sides of the argument. I, too, have been an avid film collector, starting with Kenner toy projectors as a kid in the late 1960s. But I gotta' tell you, when a new print of a limited animation Magoo Meets Frankenstein is $60 -- wow -- it's hard to rectify that price and quality when the restored Hard Days Night Blu-Ray offers jaw-dropping print and sound quality for less dollars. Isn't that what we're continually seeking as collectors? -- that is, pristine print and sound quality? At a certain point, are we collecting the movies themselves or just the format? I'm active in both formats, but I've plowed through enough prints with soft focus, muddy soundtracks, and frames that dance all over the place -- even when viewed on an GS-1200 projector. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for film, but I for one welcome the undeniable advances in technology that enhances my chosen hobby -- that is, collecting movies, and not just the format those movies reside on. It's a great time to be in the hobby!

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Timothy Duncan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 150
From: Russellville, KY, USA
Registered: Sep 2014


 - posted November 11, 2014 09:36 AM      Profile for Timothy Duncan   Email Timothy Duncan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What would be ideal is for those of us who love this hobby, to be willing to help out a fellow collector (as has been done for me) and not try to profit from one another. Recouping your money is one thing, but trying to profit off of another collector who shares your passion is another. There are not that many of us, and the count on this forum is not completely accurate as some who join are looking to sell off acquisitions of one kind or another. I understand what Dave is saying about greed. He didn't accuse everyone on the forum, but pointed out that there are some sly ones here. We would be foolish to think that we are ALL good guys (and gals). Of course, like it or not, we are all dabbling with what most of the modern world considers an obsolete medium, and it is much like owning a classic car. It is inevitably going to be expensive due to a lack of available machine parts or currently manufactured items (such as the films themselves).

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted November 11, 2014 11:03 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John, there are different kind of collectors. I personnaly appreciate as well dvds but don't value them as films. I am ready to accept some lines or other minor defaults when watching a real film as it is, in my point of vue, part of it.

--------------------
Dominique

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted November 11, 2014 11:24 AM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the original poster feels fine with Blu-Ray or DVD's, he should go for it. Probably hasn't seen a 35mm print run at all, as Blu-Ray and DVD isn't film and has no soul. Cold, digital pictures aren't as nice as a projected film. For me ... Video is tolerable, not giving me much, film is alive and just gives me tons of pleasure

Each to his own

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 11, 2014 11:55 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can I just put my two pence worth in here?
First off, this forum is for everyone, if people do or don't reply that's forums.
I agree whole heartedly about the cost of new films, that said I guess they cost an awful lot to produce and unfortunately the people buying power is no longer there.
If you buy second hand from one of the few dealers that are still trading your less likely to be seen off. If a film,(including some of mine) are listed on eBay and they sell for big bucks that's sellers advantage, and of course most dealers are also doing this, however, if the buyer is happy with his or her purchase then its deal done. A lot of people in this hobby now run DVD/BLU Ray projection along side there cine. I'm not there yet because I do like the mini features and digests along with ads and trailers. Cine collecting is purely a hobby these days, (an expensive one as you say), but it is just that.
One things for sure, no one expected cine film to be alive and kicking in 2014 and collections,(at the moment) going up in value, but DVDs and Blu rays, (the later has not took off like they thought it would and 4K will knock it out soon), can now be picked up for pence at car boot sales. If simply watching movies is your fun then of course the DVD/BR option is good and cheap, if you want a real medium and a hobby then cine is a great hobby.
I'm not the biggest forum fan but this is a good one along with small format film forum as they are well monitored, there's no pathetic mickey mouse user names and any bad stuff is soon removed. [Wink]
Phil at CHC and Steve Osborne are doing a great job bringing new items onto super 8 but I think we all know if Derann were around it may still be a lot stronger and prices would be a bit more stable. [Frown]

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David Baker
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Hamilton , Ohio
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted November 11, 2014 12:14 PM      Profile for David Baker   Email David Baker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Vidar , Oh yes , I've seen 35MM film prints run - I used to edit features together when I was a projectionist YEARS AGO . It was GREAT FUN !! I never considered it a job . It was ( and still is ) a PASSION !

However I am glad I stirred the pot and finally got some replies to a post ! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Dave

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Vidar Olavesen
Film God

Posts: 2232
From: Sarpsborg, Norway
Registered: Nov 2012


 - posted November 11, 2014 12:20 PM      Profile for Vidar Olavesen   Author's Homepage   Email Vidar Olavesen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
:-) Then you should have noticed the excellent quality film gives compared to video. I too think 1000 dollars for Star Wars is a bit over the top, but I rather see my 600 dollars Raiders of the Lost Ark scope, stereo Super 8 print, even if I have the video of it.

Did not mean to offend :-) Just got too much passion for film (well, there's not such a thing as too much passion maybe?)

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David Baker
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Hamilton , Ohio
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted November 11, 2014 12:31 PM      Profile for David Baker   Email David Baker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
WAY TO GO VIDAR !!
YES PASSION is limitless !
I have always believed running films is more of a SOCIAL event .
Like my DRIVE-IN Halloween show was . It brought together groups of people who wouldn't have probably ever met - and chatted about the NOVELTY of hearing the film pass through the shutter - and eagerly await the next reel of CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN .
Sadly , something that seems to be lacking in today's society . [Frown]
Although picture / sound quality is better with digital , I STILL MISS SEEING THAT PROJECTION " CUE " AT THE TOP RIGHT OF THE SCREEN !! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Dave

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 11, 2014 02:58 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is sad how fast film is being forgotten, when I first started doing the yearly St Johns Ambulance xmas film shoes for the kids
the Children knew what I was there for, as time went by, (I'm only going back 15-20 years), as time went by more and more Children watching me set up began to look confused and wasn't sure what the equipment was for until the screen went up. Now none of them know and they all flock around asking me what's that machine for, how does it show films. What are the round spools for? If you go to the cinema you no longer see anyone looking at the back to the projector, all the patterns of smoke are gone in the beams. I guess its progress but how sad to see it all disappearing so fast,
That's where we all come in and keep the magic going. [Wink]

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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006


 - posted November 11, 2014 05:30 PM      Profile for Claus Harding   Email Claus Harding   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no problem with Greed. I have a nice 16mm print of it...

Seriously, though, it is interesting that here we are, collectors of two formats that should have been "dead" decades ago, yet now we are rapidly becoming curators of a kind, keeping the very idea, the very history of film projection alive even as the 'big format', 35mm, is dying a quick death in commercial cinemas. Last we checked, 35mm was the survivor...not any more.

Scarcity has always bred value, however ephemeral.
"Alien", 'scope, full length; "Show Boat" in mint 'Tech, "Robin Hood"...pick your poison. I think we all can see the dollar figures dancing when it comes to pricing these titles. And why?

The films are rare, with few prints in truly flawless condition and, for better or worse, these films are at a pinnacle of our own making.
The films are great, sure, but so they are on Blu-Ray, so it isn't just the material, it is the PRINT. Because unlike DVDs, we take a toll on our prints every time we show them. It can't be helped; it's physics. You can re-run a Blu-Ray until the cows come home, it won't show any difference.

I may just be rambling, but I think what we are really paying for is the love for and protection of the print in addition to its scarcity.
We are paying for the attention and care with which it has been stored, cleaned, wound and projected. If the previous owner took a flawless print and sold it as 'average' (lines, jumps...) a couple of years later, he would have done real damage to our hobby by taking one more great print out of circulation. If a Blu-Ray gets chewed on by the dog, you just get a new copy.

Lest you think I am totally "zen" about this, I will complain as much as anyone when I see a title I love and I realize I can't afford it :-)

Greed will always be with us, but in film collecting, at least one can point to some concrete reasons as to why some films cost what they cost....or that's at least my reasoning for now.

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted November 11, 2014 06:04 PM      Profile for Dino Everette   Email Dino Everette   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are bad people everywhere and especially in any sort of hobby that involves buying and selling, reselling... Yes there are plenty of greedy ones, but i kind of feel like we all know who they are...The folks that sell every print as rare! therefore $200

But then there are others who try and just sell them to good homes...I am pretty sure I lost a friend not too long ago in this hobby because instead of selling all of the reels I was then offering to them for a lower price, I said I wanted them to go to different people who actually wanted the prints, rather than to someone who was just going to turn them over on ebay for higher prices....

It is an unfortunate part of the game, and you have to just let it roll off your shoulders,If someone had a film store in your home town, this is exactly what they would have to do in order to keep the doors open.

As for the other stuff, there is no reason for you to get "raped" in a trade, simply say "No thanks, I'll keep my stuff for now." The point is to enjoy yourself so try and make sure the other stuff doesn't get the best of you. [Smile]

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004


 - posted November 11, 2014 07:10 PM      Profile for Adrian Winchester   Email Adrian Winchester   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Prices can be high but no one is forced to pay more than they can afford.

I miss the 'good old days' of the 1980s when, for a while, the price of new releases became surprisingly low, but I think prices now are quite similar - if you allow for inflation - to what companies like Walton were charging around 1980. Considering that the 'mass market' existed then and the market it tiny now, that's quite surprising. One thing we can be sure of is that Steve O and Phil S are producing releases due to their love of the hobby, not because there's money to be made.

Unless someone can significantly increase the market - by making film as 'cool' as vinyl now is - perhaps the only thing that could possibly reduce prices would be to have another lab (and striping facility) providing some competition. Don't forget that even Derann failed to produce new releases in their last 2-3 years. The lab they used was printing for around cost price towards the end, simply to keep a few people in work, and that helped keep down Derann's prices. If anyone would like to give printing a try (if suitable stock can be obtained), I've heard about a printer that could probably be snapped up for a modest price in the north of England!

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
Registered: May 2010


 - posted November 11, 2014 07:57 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with everybody! [Big Grin]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted November 12, 2014 12:40 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's really not greed, it's demand for this or that title. In many cases, it's the rarity of the title.

I have a copy of "STAR WARS", the unofficial "Cineavision" scope print, that is actually taken from a print that was not too far distanced from a first run 1977 print, complete with the 1977 subtitles and original scroll at the beginning. I have compared frame by fram in some cases, the Derann STAR WARS and this STAR WARS and you see, (especially on the last reel in the last battle sequence) the splice lines from shot to shot, which were cleaned up and off of the later re-issue prints (which the Derann print was taken from).

Now, to most folks, they wouldn't give a care as to whether it's the actual 1977 version or not, but to a pimply 11 year old kid, (now nearly 49), who stood in line to see this film three times a day in 1977, it means everything. I thankfully bought my print (for 800.00 dollars) a year or two ago when I still had money. I feel that it was money well spent, and I have the wonderful pleasure of truly seeing STAR WARS the way it was originally released in 1977!

The film collecting hobby isn't a "watch once and throw away" format, as you can do with DVD or bluray, (little more expensive for bluray to just throw away).

Forinstance, movies that I would never even attempt to find on super 8, I can quite frankly, most of the time, download in HD off the internet and just watch them, and most of the time, they are "one time watchers".

I love watching my incredibly scratched up print of "Warlords of Atlantis" because I grew up seeing it on the theaters. Sure, color and picture are better on DVD, but to see it the way I remember it, (the super 8 print actually has pretty good color, just scratched to hell!).

So, if you want a disposable hobby David, your in the wrong hobby or forum. That's not an attempt to put you off, mind you, it's just that film is a certain mindset and love, which goes way beyond just the love of this or that story on film, but a love affair with the film itself!

I agree with you too ... Passquale!! [Smile]

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 12, 2014 01:40 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hobbies are usually as expensive as you want them to be, and if you know when to recognize that something is beyond your budget and not spend next month's rent on a film, you'll stay out of trouble. When everybody feels that way, those overpriced films will become not so overpriced.

I used to work with a guy that spent $6,000 to paint a classic car, only to have it scratched to tears when it got in the way of a drunken brawl in a bar parking lot. (-a story with multiple lessons...)

He spent $10,000 building a motor for it, then took out the oil pan hitting a misplaced cinder block....

-put in that perspective, film collecting is downright cheap!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted November 12, 2014 02:00 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to think it was magic when film rule the day, and before platters appeared. The magic was the little cue marks just before a change of reels.

I always turned round to see the change. Pure magic, and skill.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted November 12, 2014 03:09 PM      Profile for Dino Everette   Email Dino Everette   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Hobbies are usually as expensive as you want them to be, and if you know when to recognize that something is beyond your budget and not spend next month's rent on a film, you'll stay out of trouble. When everybody feels that way, those overpriced films will become not so overpriced.
Actually that was very perfectly put...There is no need complaining about how expensive a hobby is because they all are as expensive as you let them be...No one can obtain EVERYTHING they want as a collector, unless they have unlimited funds, so there will always be items within reach and items outside of reach, you just have to learn to appreciate what is within your means......Which is actually a very good life lesson...

The thought process behind posting a comment such as

"Who would REALLY pay HUNDREDS of bucks for a 34 min . digest or a 17 min. digest of a film these days when they are almost ALL available in full length format on Blu ray or DVD ?"

Is really just a negative attitude, because the answer is some people will, and some people won't, but coming to a film forum and posting negativity like that is just stirring the pot...

I wouldn't go to a classic car show and shout "Why would you pay thousands of dollars to paint up an old car when you can buy a new car that is probably cheaper and shinier?"

Remember that hobbies are supposed to be fun, and the hobbyists themselves shouldn't be making it "un-fun"

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 12, 2014 03:35 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just going off topic for a moment, which I'm quite happy to take up on a new thread;

"I have compared frame by fram in some cases, the Derann STAR WARS and this STAR WARS and you see, (especially on the last reel in the last battle sequence) the splice lines from shot to shot, which were cleaned up and off of the later re-issue prints (which the Derann print was taken from)."

Osi, no "clean up", just re-framing?

Please let us take this up in a new thread.

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