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Author Topic: Vertigo on Super 8
Jason Smith
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: Tohoku, Japan
Registered: Oct 2015


 - posted September 29, 2016 01:31 AM      Profile for Jason Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looking back in the archives on the forum, I saw that Hitchcock`s masterpiece "Vertigo" could be ordered new from The Reel Image or CHC.

I`m interested in hearing reviews and seeing screenshots from those who own this feature on Super 8.

I`m specifically interested in what the source material was used. I`m curious if the source material were from the 1983 re-issue or the 1996 restoration.

My dream would be to have a print made from an original 16 or 35mm IB Tech print...but that seems like a pipe dream.

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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler

Posts: 437
From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015


 - posted September 29, 2016 05:46 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you mean from a 16 or 35mm negative -- that would look much better than from a print.

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Jason Smith
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: Tohoku, Japan
Registered: Oct 2015


 - posted September 29, 2016 06:45 PM      Profile for Jason Smith     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Joseph. I think that's what I would really want.
A Super 8mm reduction print from a negative that used a 16mm or 35mm IB tech release print.

I"m going to guess that the Super 8 prints of Vertigo that are available, come from a release print from the 80s or 90s. If anyone has a print, let me know what you think of the quality.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted September 30, 2016 11:08 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It all depends on the source of the material ...

Derann, for instance, released many of the features from the restored releases of the time period,(Snow White was one of these), which meant that you were getting a super 8 print of a feature that may not have even looked that good in it's original release.

I've seen many of the prints that have come from Germany, and these features, while pricey, are taken from very good source material, my "Raiders of the Lost Fart" and "Empire Strikes Beck!"

" Put ... the candle ... BECK!"

... are quite good. I said all that to say this, if it exists, I'm betting it looks great. I have seen the prints of "Rear Window" on super 8, another Hitchcock, and they are superb!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted September 30, 2016 06:01 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, "Raiders" comes from a release print, in fact some highlights are totally burnt, but still the resulting print looks very beautiful in terms of color and sharpness.
Snowhite is from a neg; lacks some punch in my opinion, but it's totally clear and without specks, scratches etc especially at reel changeover.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 30, 2016 06:08 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I actually really like my collectors edition Snow White print Maurizio.

When I finally get around to pulling out a projector again, I was going to make this film the first to do a review on again, given the shear beauty and vibrancy of this print.

I certainly cannot say it is lacking in anything from my own point of view to be honest???

It's hard to believe this is printed from something originally created in 1938. Simply incredible!

Even the mono original soundtrack is decent on this one.
Now there's a bonus given some of the later Derann stuff!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted October 01, 2016 11:53 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurizio ...

Are you sure that you have a Derann print? (as, there were quite a few good or decent "pirate" prints of this title).

As Andrew stated, this Snow White from Derann, is simply stunning, it really does look like a GOOD 16MM. My print is from the first 100 prints struck and is on AGFA film stock.

Now, sadly, I must report that my soundtrack is a slightly muffled audio, and could do with a grand re-record, but the image is simply breat-taking and is, most definitely, NOT from a 1930 neg.

I actually should check to see if I watched in listening to the balance strip and not the main stripe. I'll do that today! [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler

Posts: 437
From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015


 - posted October 01, 2016 12:16 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all prints have to come from negs? (Exception: reversal film.) So if a Super 8 print was made from a 35mm release print, a Super 8 negative would have to be made first from that 35mm print.

What I meant to say in my original post was that a 35mm neg would be the ultimate source, assuming this was an original neg used to make release prints. In that case, there would be several possibilities available to make a Super 8 print:

- Print down from the 35mm neg right to the Super 8 release prints.
- Make a Super 8 positive from the 35mm neg, than in turn make a Super 8 neg from which all Super 8 release prints would be made.

AFAIK, the chain always has to be neg-positive-neg-positive etc.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted October 01, 2016 02:42 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I've actually got two prints of Snow White on Super 8mm.
The first I purchased from a friend of mine and its very nice indeed.
However, though the colours are nice and the quality of the print is decent, it does contain one or two negative scratches within it and no more so than towards the end of the film as the closing scene pans out while the accompanying music belts out.

I've always took this as being a Derann print as, like I said, the quality of the print overall is very very good and it certainly has the sharpness associated with these later Derann prints. I will never know of its origins for certain simply because it came to me on two 800ft spools with no original box to accompany it.

About a year or so later, I learned of a print purchased from new owned by a lovely old gentleman in Lancashire.
I was already purchasing some prints from him before I learned of this print he had.
Anyhow once he said he was willing to part with it, I was immediately interested.
It transpires it was one of the early collectors special edition prints and has a numbered gold labelled badge to confirm this on the spine of the original box.

The print is simply outstanding. Watching one against the other, is like chalk and cheese.
There is simply no comparison in any respect.
Now as we know, Snow White was "restored" somewhat before making it initially available as a VHS release.
Derann were obviously supplied with one of these "restored" print negatives in order for this to look this outstanding.

It's not like the Blu Ray picture though. By then it seems the original footage has been even further doctored and to my eyes, begins to look a little false for the era it was created originally.
The collectors edition print still retains all the original beauty and authenticity of my other print but it just simply looks flawless and totally vibrant in its rich vibrant colour palette.

I'd check you weren't listening to a later recorded duplicate balance stripe there Osi, because on mine at least, the mono sound on the main stripe, is about as good as it ever came directly from Derann. I'd be very surprised if yours were any different given that they probably recorded not too far apart.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted October 02, 2016 03:44 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joseph,

"So if a Super 8 print was made from a 35mm release print, a Super 8 negative would have to be made first from that 35mm print."

The usual way of doing it was / is to make a 16mm negative from the 35mm print, from which which double run super 8 prints are then struck, ie. two 8mm prints side by side on 16mm print film (these are then slit into two super 8 prints).

This is because the printers used by the labs are designed to make super 8 prints in this way.

"Print down from the 35mm neg right to the Super 8 release prints."

Sadly, not possible with the printers used by the labs in the UK for the last 30 odd years, or to my understanding, by Andec in Germany; you need to make a 16mm negative.

Interestingly, early STANDARD 8 prints from Derann in the 1960's could be made direct from 35mm negatives (diffent printer) and the quality was excellent.

So, a 35mm print would often be used as source material, especially back in the day of cut-downs, where the print was used for editing, before the 16mm negative was made from it.

But top quality super 8 prints were made when a 16mm inter-negative could be sourced.

In this case, Derann would strike a release deal with, say for example 20th Fox to release a title, then ask them to find an inter-negative for them; or once they had the rights, Derann would try to source an inter-negative for themselves.

Of course, 16mm inter negatives provide a better image in terms of colour, contrast, grain and image steadiness than staring with a 35mm print, and this was certainly Derann's preferred method for producing full length features, although sometimes a 35mm print would be used if all else failed and a good 35mm print could be found.

Some releases actually never made it to market even though the rights were cleared, because good enough quality source material couldn't be found.

That said, prints made from 35mm sources can be excellent if the print is good to start with and the lab does an excellent job.

The Disney prints from Derann were slightly unique in that Disney normally provided 16mm inter-negatives direct to Derann, which explains why the quality was so consistently high.

But, of course, a first print run was still the best as sadly, damage and negative wear would start appearing on subsequent runs (unfortunately often due to bad handling at the lab).

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted October 02, 2016 04:31 AM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I imagine the Blu Ray was from a complete restoration from the original B&W sequential colour Technicolor negative. This would have been given digital recombination of the 3 colours with individual exposure, contract and gamma correction (and shrinkage correction to ensure good registration) which could have made the response more like that of later colour stock. It all depends on the digital grading which colour appearance you get.

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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler

Posts: 437
From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015


 - posted October 02, 2016 08:20 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Rob.

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