8mm Forum


  
my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » Variable light output on Elmo ST-1200 (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
Author Topic: Variable light output on Elmo ST-1200
Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2015 03:56 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We knew in Elmo ST-1200 there is a selection for low-high light output. I am in the middle of an idea to modify the bulb on my ST-1200 to be 24v, 240w with external transformer.

My questions:

1. Can I make a low-high output through the transformer by reducing the voltage output between 18v for low and 24v for high?

2. Can I use a similar like light dimmer to have a variable light output to my desired strength?

3. If the above mentioned method is not workable, how Elmo ST-1200 regulates the light output between low and high?

Thanks

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2015 04:54 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Where are you getting your new transformer from Winbert with all the right tappings on its secondary winding?

If you just used an external transformer then the switch on the machine would not work for the two lamp settings unless you somehow worked the wiring to a plug in point on the side of the machine, like a Bulgin for example, and then back to the lamp again.

A better, more professional and neater concept, would be to fit a different transformer into the machine itself but then don't forget it has to have the same motor voltage output tappings,the same physical size as the existing one if you want the projector in tact. Then you need an 18v and 24v tapping while maintaining the VA rating of the original one.

As for a dimmer, somehow you would then need to find the room and do a professional cosmetic job of fitting a variac as the output to the lamp is ac not dc so a simple variable resistor is not an option not at least without fitting a bridge rectifier at the lamp output stage of the transformer.

I have to say, without taking into account telecine machines, I don't think I have ever seen a projector with a dimable light circuit. Why would you want to uprate the projector to make it brighter, only to then want to reduce the lamp output with a dimmer switch? To me that does not make any sense and the only reason projectors have a "low" lamp setting is to prolong the lamp life slightly by feeding it fewer volts than it is designed to operate at.

These days the Osram Xenophot range of lamps are so inexpensive for 50 hours of use per lamp, that I never use the low lamp setting as the maximum brightness obtainable from my machines costs me less than a fiver for 50 hours minimum viewing time when the lamps are purchased in packs of ten.

All in all the whole concept ain't gonna be an easy thing to do let alone finding or fitting a correct transformer in a manner that retains the dignity of the machine, I would have thought.

Another point to consider is that if you were to fit a F1.0 lens and a two bladed shutter to your ST1200, you would probably see a brighter on screen image than using the standard lens and 3 bladed shutter with a 250w lamp.

Therefore is it even worth the effort until you already have the maximum brightness from your machine assuming you do not already have this configuration on your ST1200?

[ January 18, 2015, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted January 18, 2015 06:38 AM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The transformer you use will need 2 outputs at 18v & 24v. I used to rewind transformers in my first job. If the output was multiple voltages there was a common and then taps for each other voltage.

If you can find a transformer with the two voltages you need, that would work. The switch shouldn't be a problem.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 18, 2015 06:40 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew thanks for the reply.

I am totally a layman in electronic things so many idea come from a very rough thought.

From your explanation it sounds to become very complicated now from what I firstly tought.

But first of all, the reason why I was thinking to reduce light because 240w will be too bright for my small theatre but I sometime do outdoor screening where more light output is needed.

Back to my idea, I was thinking that the transformer will be placed outside the projector. The bulb will be directly connected to this transformer with a manual on/off switch to avoid burning frames. When threading film the transformer will be manually switched off and turned on accordingly when the movie starts.

quote:

Don't forget it has to have the same motor voltage output tappings,the same physical size as the existing one if you want the projector in tact. Then you need an 18v and 24v tapping while maintaining the VA rating of the original one.

As for a dimmer, somehow you would then need to find the room and do a professional cosmetic job of fitting a variac as the output to the lamp is ac not dc
...

This is what I quite don't understand, my current bulb is 15v-150w...so it must be DC, why you think the output to the lamp is AC?

Thanks for futher explanation.

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 18, 2015 07:10 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Why if your lamp is 15v 150w do you assume it has to be DC Winbert?
The supply comes directly from the secondary windings on the transformer via the switch therefore it is indeed AC as you would find out for yourself if you measured the supply with a voltmeter or multimeter.

Given what you are trying to achieve (creating a dual purpose machine), the easiest way I can think of for you, is to buy something like an old NJD Datamoon and simply route the extended lamp cables in it, out to a second lampholder, then switch lamps to 250w type when showing your films outdoors.

In this country an old Datamoon can be got for as little as around £20 on e bay, usually in poor cosmetic condition for that type of money it has to be said.
It is already designed to take the lamp you desire, has a two setting brightness switch an on/off switch and an internal fan to keep it all cool. All you would need to do is extend the lamp cables and disconnect the supply to the gobo motor in a safe manner, simple as that.

There cannot be an easier or more inexpensive way of achieving what you are after I wouldn't have thought.
Obviously, it even comes with the correct type of lamp holder that you would need for the 250w 24v lamps.

The footprint of the Datamoon would comfortably fit on the lower tier of a standard projector stand and would therefore look quite professional as an uprated power supply for the bigger lamp.

I've just spotted one on UK E Bay for the type of price I said.
The item number is 221661964328 if you are interested.

[ January 20, 2015, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 20, 2015 04:40 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am not sure if I am thinking correctly, Andrew.

quote:
Why if your lamp is 15v 150w do you assume it has to be DC Winbert?
My ST-1200 is using (15v, 150w,)bulb that shares with my Sankyo 800. I am quite sure that my Sankyo has DC output for the bulb.

So how can ST-1200 can take this DC bulb if it has AC output ?

Can someone clarify for me please.

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 20, 2015 05:01 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Light bulbs don't care if they are powered by DC or by AC. They are really just a kind of resistor.

An AC lamp circuit is much simpler and more reliable in something that is AC powered.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 20, 2015 05:19 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, as ever, Winbert, is correct. The halogen lamp can be powered by either type of power supply without any effect to the naked eye.
If you do your checks you will see for yourself that the supply to the ST1200 lamp is most definitely 15v AC. Not DC.

[ January 20, 2015, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 27, 2015 08:10 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now I got it.

So I can supply the bulb (EJL Bulb: 200w, 24v) with AC or DC transformer, right?

Please see the below picture:

 -

Steve/Andrew, do you think it will work?

ps: I will turn on/off the bulb through the transformer.

Thanks for your input.

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 03:49 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Electrically it should be OK, but the fact that the lamp is no longer interlocked with the motor (and the fan) means you will need to really be on top of things to avoid burning up a film or the lamp or possibly parts around the gate.

I'm not sure going from 150 to 200W is going to be a very dramatic change either. If you do this you might want to do it in a way that it isn't hard to restore it to original later if you decide.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 28, 2015 04:09 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
If you do decide to do it Winbert, try getting a NJD Datamoon or similar as this will be the simplest,cheapest and safest,not to mention, the most professional looking way to provide a 24v 250w supply to the lamphouse.You even get the correct lamp connector with it!

I know others who have successfully run the ST1200 with this lamp before. Apparently no extra cooling is necessary so long as the film is continually moving while the lamp is on.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 04:22 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know of an ST-800 that runs a 250W lamp with an external transformer. Elmo never intended this to happen, but apparently it's possible.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 28, 2015 05:55 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As Steve points out Winbert, a more professional solution would involve fitting a relay and a bridge rectifier in the motor circuit so that the lamp can only come on when the motor is already running. As steve points out, you can do a fair bit of damage, not only to the film, if you end up out of sequence with your switching.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 07:19 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Graham Ritchie in NZ has successfully converted a GS1200 to 250 watt lighting, using an external transformer. Not sure how he solved the interlock issue.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 07:40 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What's interesting about this one is you start out with 150W and 15V: 10Amps, and you wind up with 200W and 24V: about 8 Amps.

If you could add a series 9V transformer secondary you could power this using the original transformer, the whole trick would be getting the phasing right.

The difference is your 250 VA (minimum) transformer could become 72VA (minimum).

-smaller, cheaper...

If you did it right it would be easy to convert back and forth as needed, plus all the internal switching would work as normal.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 28, 2015 08:19 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Good point Steve, but as I understood it,Winbert wants to fit a 250w lamp not a 200w lamp. Still a 10 amp circuit though as before at 24v, well near as anyhow.

The 250w Osram Xenophot lamps have the same filament arrangement as the 15v 150w A1232 lamp. These are a far brighter lamp than any of the 200w type and produce a far whiter light. These are the ones to go for if anyone is attempting to upgrade their light output over and above their existing 150w lamp on a Super 8 machine.

As has been documented on here quite a bit, it is possible to get the same brightness levels from the Osram Xenophot 150w lamp in certain circumstances, as can be obtained from the Elmo GS1200 with its standard shutter and 200w lamp, but will appear a brighter image as the lamp is much whiter.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 09:19 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think as of the schematic, he's dropped it to 200W, but this idea could do 250W.

The main transformer would need to tolerate about 5% above normal operating current, but than again I'd really hope they aren't running it that close to maximum rated anyway!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 28, 2015 09:43 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys thanks for the input.

You perhaps remember my problem with one of the ST 1200 where the bulb always lose one pin after several hours of use. Members here suggested to replace the lamp fitting.

On the other hand, when I was in Canada I bought so many EJL bulbs (which is apparently 200w, 24v not 250w) they were firstly intended for 16mm but it never happaned. So rather to waste them, I am going to use on my ST 1200.

Having 2 situation above I have come up with the idea to do this conversion since I have to replace the lamp fitting and to use these EJL bulbs.

Reading Steve's comment above, I think I will go ahead as my picture above. I know without the interlock, I will have to be really carefull with the possibility of frame burning if the projector is suddenly stop.

Ps: hey what about with the heat glass on ST 1200, will it avoid the frame getting burnt should the interlock become an issue?

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 28, 2015 10:20 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Leave the diffuser and split glass in Winbert and by all means go ahead with your plans due to your surplus lamp inventory.
However using those lamps, I doubt you will feel you have gained very much at all. If you fitted a two blade shutter and a F1.0 lens, the 15v 150w Osram Xenophot lamp would be brighter and whiter than using your standard configuration with a 200w lamp.

If you have the ordinary f1.3 lens fitted to your ST1200 that it came with as standard, you are already losing loads of light output as well as having to place the projector further away from the screen to get the same sized image, therefore losing even more light to the screen.

Also if the lamps you have, are designed to be used in 16mm projectors, then they will not have the filament orientated correctly for the tiny Super 8mm frame, it just doesnt focus the light output correctly for this frame size.
This in turn, will only add further to your dissapointment after your efforts.

There is no Xenophot available to replace the 200w type. Xenophot lamps give off an extra 20% more light than ordinary lamps, therefore to me, using anything else is a no brainer.

[ January 29, 2015, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted January 28, 2015 01:52 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert

I think you will find the EJL will give a much dimmer light than any 15/150watt lamp. I stopped using the EJL long ago in the GS1200 they are a terrible lamp. I use ELC 250 watt Xenophot lamp, much better, anyway I made a external power supply for it from bits from an old B/H 16mm projector which, can still give you a low and high settings and it works well. The only thing I bought was a old speaker box from a junk store $2 to put it all in.

There is no interlocking with the projector cooling fan and you do have to remember to manually switch that on before the external lamp....but the end result does look good and certainly better that those dull EJL lamps that's for sure. [Smile]
 -
 -

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 28, 2015 02:23 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Nice Job Graham.. oh and very sound advice lol [Wink]
BTW Winbert, there ain't no such thing as a D.C. transformer.

[ January 29, 2015, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2015 07:03 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I have to learn a lot.

Graham, your work looks amazing but I now become so nervous. I re-post your picture again here:

 -

What I learnt that the A circle is an AC transformer, so it has DC output to supply power to your 24v lamp.

My initial understanding is that we can directly hook the lamp to this AC transformer output, only we need an on/off switch.

But what is in the B circle....? why is seen so complicated to me. Can you elaborate please, so I will not make a mistake on my project.

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 29, 2015 07:12 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Wilbert, based on your present electrical knowledge, why not just simply leave the experts to design your power pack for you, as I have suggested many many many times yawn yawn.
( NJD , Graham , Loads of other options!)
Also why not simply go with the vast majority opinion and spend a few quid on some decent Xenovaron lamps, change your lens and then you will eventually have a piece of kit worthy of picking our ears up!

I really don't get all this picking of people's brains only to use it to absolutely no avail!

I don't suspect for one minute that I will get a straight forward answer!!

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2015 07:27 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew you have to understand...I live in Indonesia..you cannot compare with those live in Europe or States where sources are abundance. We need to work thinking out of the box.

--------------------
Winbert

 |  IP: Logged

Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted January 29, 2015 07:28 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Bollocks!!!!!! Everyone knows when to accept sound advice!!!!

This project could and would work for you, but not while ever every step of the way is a learning quest and one in which people who know far more than you are questioned and doubted over and over and over again !

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2