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Author
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Topic: Newbie ?? To synch or not to synch?
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David Thomas
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Christiansburg, VA, USA
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted March 30, 2015 01:18 PM
8mm projector ?? for online inquiries! 3-30-15
Hello!
I am trying to dump both 8mm & super 8 to my computer via a telesync box
and a sony hi8 camcorder with a capture unit (aren't we all:) I knew I would
run into a frame rate problem before I started, so my projector does not have
any type of speed control whatsoever. I am under the assumption after
reading various posts, that most film in this category run on average @ 18fps,
yet camcorder and/or capture unit grabs it at 24fps? I have seen other
brands online that have either a switch to toggle between 18-24 or a variable
speed control, but I haven't seen what that control tops out at. One was 14-
22fps, which is close, but it makes sense ( I could be wrong ) that if it was 24
(or 23.97fps) that would eliminate the "strobe" or "flicker" effect. I have/use
anything from a simple Nero program, to Vegas &/or Premiere to edit in post,
but with what I have now, it looks better just playing it on the projection
screen.
Do you have any suggestions or products that can fill this request without
spending $1500-$3000 on a machine that has a camera and dvd burner
already built in?
I've seen everything from shooting it on a screen/wall/piece of paper to
making a lens out of a webcam (which looks very in depth) and was just
wanting to get thoughts on both process and products.
Thank you in advance for your assistance, and moreso for such an
informatiable site!
Sincerely,
Dave
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David Thomas
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David Thomas
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Christiansburg, VA, USA
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted March 30, 2015 02:14 PM
Thank you Dominique for the fast reply.
Sorry, I'm still learning syntax here ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Thx for being patient.
Let's try this:
I tried to use a Bell&Howell Mx33 dual 8 film projector which can switch from 8mm &/or super 8. I lined it up with an Ambico telecine box (the $25 one just to start) and lined up a Sony Hi8 Handycam Vision camcorder on a tripod. The camera was connected to my computer (8gb Ram) and did a test run just using a simple capture program via Nero 2014. Considering this isn't top of the line gear, the picture thru on the Ambico wasn't too bad, but since the film projector is running either 16 or 18fps depending on what type of reel I have on (8mm or super 8) the capturing program is grabbing frames at 24fps... so obviously, there is a huge strobe effect. (hence, like you said... How does it look?)
Horrible! lol
After researching around, I see there are other projectors that have a variable speed control, but everywhere I look online, I can't seem to find any postings for projectors for sale that say (example) "this projector can operate at 16-24fps depending where you set the adjustible speed control"
I saw one that said it operated between 14-22fps. I also saw a recommendation that you should run the projector at 20fps...
My ??, or confusion is:
Wouldn't you want the projector and the camcorder/capture program to be at the same fps ( I "assume" lol that would be 23.97/24fps) and that would get rid of the stobe n flicker effect.?
No matter what, I def. need a different projector, but not sure what to get. At 20fps you would lose around 10%, but it's supposedly not noticable to the average viewer. That being said (or stated online) at 22fps you would only be talking 5% loss?
Hope that makes a bit more sense... and wondering if Chinon 2000-3000 models can fill this for the time being.
I'm more an audio engineer, and learned on old 4 tracks and now using reel to reel 1/4 decks to transfer and restore using ProTools, Cubase etc... point of that. If I can learn the mechanices of the basics, then it will help me down the road with more sophisticated equipment and just a great building block to start out with in the film world of it.
thank you again!
Dave
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David Thomas
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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008
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posted March 30, 2015 02:36 PM
Dave, Your "Strobe effect" comes from the incompatibility between the "Shutter frequency" of the projector and the "field rate" of the camera.
A NTSC camera (USA) has a frame rate of approximately 30 per second, which gives a field rate of 60. The projector has a shutter frequency of "FPS x 3" for a 3 blade shutter. If you run the projector at 20fps, this produces a shutter frequency of 60, which matches the camera.... and the flicker/strobing will disappear.
Obviously, a film shot at 16 or 18fps will appear fast in your capture, and one shot at 24 fps will appear slow. Having captured your film, you then use an editing program to digitally restore the correct speed.(Yes, it DOES work!!!!)
Martin
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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....
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David Thomas
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Christiansburg, VA, USA
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted March 30, 2015 03:56 PM
Last edit! lol 5:06pm
So, with a variable speed projector, can I assume if you are doing 8mm (16fps) and/or Super 8 (18fps) that the variable speed control will base off of each independent setting? Let me try and reword that...
Example: If I am in 8mm mode and let's say the "middle" is set at 16fps, would I have as much leeway (below or above "middle=16fps" and the same at 18fps (super 8)... ugh. I know what I want to explain, but it's not phrasing right.
Can I get to 20fps to capture at NTSC (60fps) on either setting or is there any loss of quality
Sorry everyone, I'm trying LOL
Martin!!! TY so much. I knew it was sub-dividable someway, but that cleared it up! very simple to do, but apparently there is a fine line between clever and stupid, me being on the latter! ty again!
And Barry, thank you as well for the info. Being new on this end, knowing what needs to be done and trying to explain it without the proper jargon was rough, but this help out tremendously! You both rock the mic!
Dave
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David Thomas
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David Thomas
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Christiansburg, VA, USA
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted April 03, 2015 11:33 AM
Thanks again to everyone on here! It's been more than helpful
Any other suggestions, ideas, websites to start with?
Pete & Andrew brought up ideas I wouldn't have thought of (obviously) I also saw things from swapping out bulbs with LED's which makes total sense (as to not melt film) all the way to attaching webcam's inside (or a different) lens and skipping the whole telecine route all together. I'm fairly handy when it comes to basic wiring, but rebuilding a projection motor or knowing exactally what types of lenses, distances, lighting, etc I know very little besides rule of thirds LOL
just anything along these lines. Thx again, everyone have a killer weekend!
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David Thomas
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