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Topic: Elmo ST100 issues

Michael Kolstee
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Posts: 17
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted September 08, 2015 10:09 AM

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HI, need a little help with an elmo st1200 I purchased a while back on ebay. I finally installed new belts, a bulb and looked over and cleaned the film path. I threaded a test film in and other than static and pops from the speaker no audio. Looking around I see a couple of issues which could be related and the cause. 1) the threading lever does not pop back up and 2) the flywheel attached to sound drum does not turn. Is it the film passing over the sound drum that causes it to turn? If so there is no contact. Any advice or thoughts on how to troubleshoot this would be appreciated - Mike

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 08, 2015 10:30 AM

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The threading lever pops up automatically...sort of...

There is a last section of film path before the take-up reel which has a switch built in to it so that when the film is securely on the take-up reel the film tension causes the switch to close and the threading lever to pop up.

-but...

This is only useable with reels 800 feet and less and even then with anything but an acetate leader the film rarely grabs the take-up reel anyway but dives for the table, or the floor.

-slide this idiotic thing sideways out of the way and use the black push button near the VU meter. (I may amputate mine entirely one of these days! All it does for me is drift up against my 1200 Ft. take-up and make my machine sound like it's dragging an exhaust system underneath!)

At least this way the machine will operate exactly the same way regardless of the take-up reel size. In the heat of battle, consistency is part of sanity!

That's the easy part.

On the ST-1200 there is actually a pre-speed up arrangement for the flywheel, but they often don't work (mine barely does) so the film does power the flywheel for all practical purposes.

There is a presser over the sound head that lifts in every mode except "Forward, Project". This snugs the film down to the head, and the pinch roller that goes to the flywheel.

You should be able to twist the control knob and see it lift up and drop down. You should be able to do this even without the machine plugged in: it's all mechanical cams and linkages.

If this doesn't work, it goes a long way to explain your lack of sound and flywheel rotation.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted September 08, 2015 02:01 PM

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Steve's right, when the auto load threading is pressed down, the sound head pressure assembly is also lifted away from the sound head, so that the film doesn't make direct contact and won't turn the capstan or pressure roller.

Hopefully, Steve's advice to manual press the black release lever will resolve all, with the pressure assembly dropping into place and a nice post-gate, pre-sound head loop forming.

Sometimes, the auto load release does go wrong, stick and is troublesome to release. Believe it is due to a faulty solenoid. But hopefully all will be well when you press it.

Agree with pushing that extra guide out of the way and always using the black lever to release the auto thread.

Just one thing; when the auto thread is engaged, it won't release (and drop the sound heads pressure assembly into place) unless the machine has power!

Good luck. [Smile]

[Smile]

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Mathew James
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From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

posted September 08, 2015 03:24 PM

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This sounds Oh So familiar from when I got my St1200....and Steve got me running in no time.
You are in good hands now!!
I pushed my lever out of the way as well and have never once used it!

--------------------
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Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 08, 2015 03:42 PM

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Thanks Matt!

I used my auto-release when I first got the machine, but I think there's something wrong with it. To me, once auto-release is asserted, it should lock out.

-but with mine, as often as there is film tension through that guide the switch closes and the solenoid engages. You get a constant clicking when the guide moves around and also the solenoid gets hot!

-so even with smaller reels I stopped using it.

Sooner or later I bought a couple of films on 1200 Ft. reels and got an Elmo aluminum reel as a take-up. I doubt that final guide will ever see action again.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael Kolstee
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From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted September 11, 2015 05:01 PM

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Hi all, so far no joy. Pushing the lever only moves the guide. I've taken off the switch cover to see where it connects to the switch. It seems to make contact okay but to check I'll need to bring my multi-meter home from work. As far as the sound head moving in forward project. It's not . Any further thought would be appreciated. Tanks in advance, Mike

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Steve Klare
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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 11, 2015 06:03 PM

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Hi Mike,

We need to be sure what we are all talking about here. When you say "lever moves the guide" I take that to mean after you push down that green threading guide that pops up through the top of the machine, when you depress that black handled push button by the takeup reel it releases the threading guide to pop up to the the "up" position.

-correct?

The chute that covers the sound head has to clamp down when you twist the control knob into "forward, lamp" or the sound head can't work.

This is connected to the control knob by this absolutely Rube-Goldbergian chain of links and pivots and shafts and then a cam and follower. (They'd do it in software now...What fun is THAT?!)

Something, somewhere is either stuck or bent or disconnected or broken.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael Kolstee
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From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted September 11, 2015 07:12 PM

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Hi Steve, I meant the release button by the take up real moves the green guide feeding film onto the 800 foot take up reel. It does not do anything to the green auto load button at the feed end. Should I here a solenoid click when I push the black release lever? Thanks, Mike

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 11, 2015 08:32 PM

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The release I'm talking about is the black rectangular button in the middle of this picture:

-as long as the machine has power you should hear the solenoid click.

The final guide has a switch that should do the same thing when you put the guide into the small reel position and then push it towards the back of the machine (as if there is film tension).

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael Kolstee
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From: Rochester, NY, USA
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posted September 11, 2015 10:10 PM

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Steve, we're on the same page. No click from a solenoid that I can detect either just plugged in, the motor switch 1 click clockwise or 2 clicks to forward project. Mike

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Steve Klare
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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 12, 2015 06:21 AM

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Understood!

Sounds like a multimeter problem too. It's a good thing you know how to use one. Hopefully it's just a connection and not the coil on that solenoid open circuited.

Your sound chute (maybe we should call this a "head presser") problem has to be some mechanical glitch and it just requires you open up the machine, work the knob and see where the motion stops.

On my ST-1200 the motion happens whether or not the machine is plugged in: purely mechanical with no electrical ifs, ands or buts. It's also kind of obvious if you are looking in the area of the heads at the time.

I had a similar problem on a different machine once: turned out to be a piece of debris wedged between the follower and the cam on the control knob. It kept the follower from falling inward under spring tension when the cam was trying to allow the head presser to close. It could be something like this or something different, it just takes time and patience to find out.

So it sounds like you wanted a projector, but you got a project instead! I hope you persevere: it doesn't sound impossible.

-some machines you have to earn!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael Kolstee
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From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2013

posted September 12, 2015 11:58 AM

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Thanks Steve, I'll keep looking. The more I dig the more black goo I find. I thought I had done a better job cleaning. Mike

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted September 12, 2015 12:16 PM

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Quote,

"On my ST-1200 the motion happens whether or not the machine is plugged in: purely mechanical with no electrical ifs, ands or buts."

Yes, but only if the auto load mechanism has released.

If it has not, the top auto load loop former remains locked down and the sound head pressure assembly remains locked up away from the sound head and capstan.

If this is the case, then the mechanism remains locked here until released...which means fixing the solenoid if it is faulty...without mains supply it will stay locked like this...but what the hell do I know...

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Steve Klare
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posted September 12, 2015 12:25 PM

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Mine doesn't work that way (just tried it with and without the power connected). Whether or not the threading guide is locked down the presser moves up and down according to the knob position.

Which ST-1200 do you have? I have ST-1200HD M. I wasn't aware of this being different among them, but that's part of what we do here: learn.

It's not the same on all the STs. On my ST-800, the threading guide automatically pops up when you go from "Forward , no lamp" to "Forward, Lamp" and the presser clamps down at the same time. (I like this better: one less step to forget).

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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posted September 12, 2015 12:44 PM

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Steve, ST-1200HD M/O.

If the auto thread is locked down & the sound pressure assembly with capstan pressure roller is locked up away from the sound head and capstan.

When you press the black release lever, the auto thread pops back up to form the top loop, and the sound head pressure assembly with capstan pressure roller drop down into place.

If the black lever malfunctions, the above elements remain stuck where they are. No top loop formation and no sound head pressure assembly dropping into place.

If this happens, they remain stuck here. Until released, the sound head pressure assembly remains jammed, up, away from the sound head and capstan.

Try putting your machine into forward, engaging auto-thread, and then then stopping it (not pressing the black relese lever).

Unplug it and wait a few seconds.

Now try pressing the black lever...the auto thread will not release...the pressure assembly will not drop into place, regardless of projection mode...simulating the faulty solenoid.

Normally not a problem, unless the auto thread release solenoid is faulty.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 12, 2015 12:59 PM

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This is getting interesting!

I did this:

quote:
Try putting your machine into forward, engaging auto-thread, and then then stopping it (not pressing the black relese lever).

Unplug it and wait a few seconds.

Now try pressing the black lever...the auto thread will not release...the pressure assembly will not drop into place, regardless of projection mode...simulating the faulty solenoid.

If I follow what you are saying: my head presser should now be locked "upwards". (True?)

-but mine still closes when I go to "Forward, Lamp"

They made these machines for years, there may have been changes. There may even be some difference because you have optical sound. (Maybe the guy responsible for designing the optical option just liked this idea!)

We need third-party data here!

To the Forum: What does YOUR ST-1200 do?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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posted September 12, 2015 01:14 PM

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Intriguing; so, after waiting a while without power, pressing the black lever does NOT release the auto thread top loop former, correct?

With my machine, if the top loop former does not release, the sound head pressure assembly also remains locked up, away from the sound head, regardless of projection mode.

The release solenoid went faulty several years back and was replaced, which is why I became aware of this.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 12, 2015 01:29 PM

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Yes, the black lever has no effect and the presser still presses.

That's very interesting: it sounds like we are on the verge of a discovery here.

Now, I can't absolutely promise you somebody somewhere along the line didn't do a mod (most likely mine, from the sound of things. It's always easier to make something do less than more.). My machine was about 35 years old when it showed up here and it may have a shameful past!

I'd like to see other people try this.

How this plays out in the real world is every so often I forget to release auto-thread. Everything happens normally except during the first minute of the film something just sounds wrong. I look back and the threading guide is still locked down and the upper loop is rattling it. Luckily I've never had this scratch a film, but I do keep it cleaned and lubed.

-audio is normal the whole time, though.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Mathew James
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From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

posted September 12, 2015 01:43 PM

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"To the Forum: What does YOUR ST-1200 do?"

I have the exact same model as you Steve. ST1200HD M
My machine does the exact same thing whether i unplug the power or not...ie, If i engage autothread, when i press the black release(pretty good solid click btw, not quiet.A strong solenoid kick), the looper engages to loop mode, and the sound heads drop into place. Unplugged following the Rob's above instructions renders the exact same results on these machines apparently.
Matt

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Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 12, 2015 01:53 PM

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It's starting to sound like my machine is a little "customized" whether it was intentional or not.

(Wish I'd known about this while I had it all apart a few months back!)

So I'm with Rob here: fix that solenoid! Maybe everything else will literally fall into place after that!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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posted September 12, 2015 01:53 PM

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Steve, I bought my ST back in 1986,

I was 15 years old; it was 4...practically brand new.

We've been through a lot together!

Maybe I'll begin a new post regarding our history..,

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 12, 2015 01:58 PM

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That's a nice machine for a 15 year old!

-I thought it was a nice machine at 48!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted September 12, 2015 02:04 PM

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Yes, I remember my parents outrage at the time.

But I promised it wasn't a fad....and look I still have it!

Also, it has given us all many happy screenings over the years.

It's part of the family, if somewhat semi-retired.

The poor thing worked its socks off; now mainly use my Beaulieu.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted September 12, 2015 02:09 PM

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Yes, I had a similar conversation with my wife about my first sound projector.

(She understands now!)

You have had yours long enough to have witnessed the shutter wheel rubber turn to goo and have to be scraped off.

How long did it last?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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posted September 12, 2015 02:35 PM

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Shutter rubber coating turned to goo in, I think, 2003.

So lasted about 20 odd years with constant use.

Went off like a pneumatic drill when it failed.

Had it stripped by a good engineer at the time, along with other things that needed sorting.

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