8mm Forum: Why still collect film if you own a digital projector?

»	8mm Forum » 8mm Forum » Why still collect film if you own a digital projector? (Page 1)

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Author

Topic: Why still collect film if you own a digital projector?

Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 05, 2017 09:06 PM

Just wondering - not a judgement call by any means. Why still collect film if you own a digital projector which gives so much better picture and sound? Unless the title on film is not available on DVD.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 05, 2017 09:25 PM

I'm actually in a better position to answer this than ever. My wife bought me a digital projector for Christmas, we've been using it for months now and gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it.

The difference between the two is kind of like where your seat is in the movie theater.

With film projection you need to clean the path, thread up, run the film, adjust the focus, framing and zoom and you need to stay on top of them during the film. You need to listen to the sound and massage the controls to make it right. Then comes the aftercare and film storage. You need to understand and maintain the machines. These days you'd be better off being able to troubleshoot and repair them as well. This puts your seat up in the projection booth. You are the projectionist.

With digital presentation, once you dial the projector in you are basically down to pushing "play" and maybe tweaking the volume. This puts your seat out in the auditorium. You are the audience.

Maybe you'll replace the lamp someday. Other than that the day it fails you'll probably bin it and buy the next generation instead. It's too complex and obscure to really understand in the first place.

Do you want to show a movie or see a movie? These are both great things, but different. (It's kind of like catch a fish or buy a fish.)

I wouldn't say the video image and sound are inherently better than film either. My good to better S8 prints go head to head with projected video very well. I do find if I'm doing a mixed show it pays to run film first because the video image is brighter and in the opposite order it becomes noticeable. This may call for a touch of Xenon and/or 16mm to level the playing field.

There are days you'd like to fly the plane, there are others you'd rather just sit back in the main cabin and enjoy the "complimentary beverage".

-It's nice having the choice.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Evan Samaras
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 513
From: Queens, NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2015

posted July 05, 2017 10:35 PM

Steve made a great statement I had trouble verbalizing. "Do you want to show a movie or see a movie?"

I didn't realize how much I enjoy showing my films!

Thanks for bringing it into my awareness Steve!

--------------------
...When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the Earth...

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 05, 2017 11:00 PM

-and you will not catch me badmouthing digital projection at all, it can be a blast!

The other day I was thumbing through my DVDs and found a Mannheim Steamroller concert DVD still in the cellophane. I told my wife about my "discovery" and she said "Yes...I bought it for you!". (oops!)

-on the big screen and through my sound system it was awesome! (Just like my Derann Fantasia 2000.)

Yet all I did was slide it in the tray and push some buttons.

If you went to your friend's house and there was a beautiful fish mounted on a plaque above the fireplace, and he told you he bought it at the supermarket, wouldn't you think that was odd?

-where's the achievement?

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted July 07, 2017 07:17 PM

So very well said. This sort of discussion comes up every so often, but this just might be the best answer ever!

One other slight angle to the topic is, in addition to the tactile experience (hopefully fun!) of handling film, there's also the aesthetic of it. It simply looks different. Hopefully, if you have an excellent print, not in a bad way! If you like the beauty of the analog image, and the difference pleases your eye, then digital won't easily replicate that experience.

I don't have a video projector but have occasionally enjoyed a good borrowed one, and the experiences are so different as to be equally valid for differing reasons.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 07, 2017 09:14 PM

The two work together in interesting ways.

For example a couple of months ago I bought a Blackhawk "Le Voyage Dans la Lun". So I ran a Saturday night show for my family along with the Hugo Blu-Ray (Georges Méliès). We had a feature about the need to preserve film, and real film too!

Someday soon I'll do the same with my Blackhawk "Cops" and "The Railrodder" DVD. (Buster Keaton)

I already had an Airplane! DVD and the video projector when I bought it on film last CineSea.

-some might call that a duplication but it isn't!

I caught myself doing something funny the other night. I was showing Super-8 shorts with changeovers. I became so involved with the machines I realized there was nobody in the room watching the films!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted July 08, 2017 03:25 AM

Steve you have put it all perfectly well in every way.

I bought a digital projector last year, as much as i do like it, and it allows you to view films on the big screen with such simplicity that are either, way too expensive to want to own on cine or simply never available on cine. We are using it tonight to view Sully but other than this i have only watched no more than a dozen films on it in a year. I still continue to by buy films at present with cross of iron, Water loo and kidnapped on 16 and poltergeist on 8 plus the Len's i paid for just to be able to see kidnapped in the full glory of scope on film.
So, to answer the question, why buy expensive cine films, (with maybe a few light lines, even slight fade), when we can quickly and cheaply put them up on the disc big screen with pin sharp image and perfect sound??? (My brother even has Cross of iron and Waterloo on dvd!!!!!!! [Confused]

) is simply as Steve put it.
It's in our blood. Dave Hardy also said, they are, (obviously) two totally different viewing experiences.
At some point in the future our unique hobby will be down to a small handful, or extinct, and digital projection will almost certainly be the only way.
20 years ago people i work with thought i was nuts and more or less laughed at what i paid for a film, now they listen with interest and even talk about "film nights". Youngsters think "its cool" so as cine becomes more obscure it appears to be re gaining some interest in people who are either middle aged and want to see it again or for young people who have never seen film or a projector and are very curious and really want to have a look.
I am admitting now that my Brother is saying we have to really cut back on this now as the cost side of things is racking up and you can spend 600 quid and only end up with 3 movies if you are luck or maybe just 1. Now THAT no longer makes sense to me. (but we still do it). To pay more than a couple of hundred, (in my opinion) is simply insane but i am aware, unfortunatly, that this is the way some titles have gone. [Wink]

| IP: Logged

Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted July 08, 2017 03:34 AM

I suppose it is the difference between watching a large TV and putting on a show.

I know which I enjoy more and it's not watching TV, which is more and more what going to a DLP cinema is becoming. With all the automation equipment available now you would think they could program it to give a better overall "show" for the audience.

| IP: Logged

David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted July 08, 2017 05:20 AM

Very well summed up Steve.

However as a professional projectionist we had to care for the equipment and film , show the film , present it and watch it.

This reminds me of when i gave projection box (booth) tours to parties of young school kids as part of their media studies course.

When i did my talk on then new digital equipment they were somewhat indifferent and merely looked at the projector.

However when i showed them the film projection equipment in action the response's were WOW ! and COOL !.

They also were more pro-active in asking questions about film and the projectors.
I still remember their happy faces when i gave them all a turn at splicing some 35mm film together on the rewind bench.
They all left with some pieces of 35mm leader as a reminder.
[Smile]

--------------------
" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

| IP: Logged

Steven J Kirk
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 873
From: Southern England
Registered: Apr 2008

posted July 08, 2017 05:38 AM

I just like audio-visual equipment. All of it. At this point in my life I have nearly all of it. Interested in the history of all the formats. Just like stuff I guess. House is full of stuff!

--------------------
VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 08, 2017 06:36 AM

It all depends on what you want out of it.

Let's say you were a teacher ca. about 1975 and you needed to show the kids Romeo and Juliet. You have to go down to AV and wheel the Kodak Pageant through the hallways and up the elevator, you have four or five heavy reels of film to thread up and rewind. Maybe your print shows up splicey and with damaged perfs, maybe there is a big green line right down the middle.

What happens the day they introduce this new thing that's just a TV and a VCR on a cart, it's so cheap they have them in every room and all you need is a VHS tape in your attaché case?

Can you see where this might appeal to a lot of people?

If you look at it from this perspective collecting films makes absolutely no sense.

-but:

Everybody likes to eat. Some of those people really like to cook. It is messy and time consuming. It takes planning and effort. You have to have your ducks all in a row before you light that stove or you may wind up calling for a pizza! Even if you are experienced it's always possible to mess up and have it come out poorly. (-and it will sometimes).

Why would anybody be bothered with all this when there is takeout and frozen food?

Simple: When it works right it's better than just the food: you own it.

Still the same, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy going out to eat. It might mean you can appreciate it in ways other people can't too.

We should enjoy any kind of projection while we can. I work in a new building now. The old building had a pull down screen and a video projector in every conference room (There was 16mm once, I'm sure.) The new building is all large screen monitors without a pull down screen anywhere. I bet this is where the world is headed everywhere in a couple of years.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted July 08, 2017 10:39 AM

Collecting film is a hobby,projecting DVD is watching television.

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted July 08, 2017 11:12 AM

It's certainly a rich mans hobby, (and I'm certainly not rich) ...

it seems like I was really lucky to get back into hobby when I did (2001), as i lucked out at getting a lot of great scope Derann features for around 150.00 to 200.00 each (only going way over the top on STAR WARS), as that kind of money isn't floating about these days (I got married).

I have an older model projection TV. It can go from 20 feet to 200 feat, (from top left to bottom right), with a good picture, but I don't think I've pulled it out to watch it for a couple of years now. For me, it's just not fun. As Steve said, pop in a bluray or DVD and sit back ...

but i think a quote from "Father Ted" (U.K./Irish comedy), where the housemaid is obbsessive about making her tea ...

She goes to the retail store and a man is showing off a brand new tea maker.

"It takes all the misery out of making tea."

She glares at him and says ...

"maybe i like the misery!"

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 08, 2017 02:49 PM

Steve has answered this question very well. Both digital projection and film projection are amazing technology, and each has its own unique qualities and interests. This is surely the golden age for the movie buff, having cheap access to thousands of titles on DVD and blu ray, thus being able to build a significant library of favourate titles, and being able to display them as good, or better than, the professional cinema.
Film projection is now so rare that the display of any reel film and equipment arouses immediate interest and admiration in just about every adult and child.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

| IP: Logged

Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 08, 2017 06:41 PM

the experience of showing a motion picture is tantamount to the pleasure within - Same story when VHS was all the rage, many dumped their collections in favor of the updated technology - Tapes wear out and the image isn't what it should be - DVDs have their place and day, but Chad, thread that through your trusty (not rusty) Elmo and you will enjoy Universal Monsters as they are meant to be seen; in a theatre-surround situation with great joy - But what do I know - Shorty

| IP: Logged

Simon Balderston
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 164
From: North Lincolnshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2015

posted July 08, 2017 09:44 PM

why are we having this same old argument we love film and projecting film and that is that.keep the film flag flying

--------------------
kinema king

| IP: Logged

Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006

posted July 08, 2017 10:41 PM

Osi

I remember that episode that was good [Big Grin]

...was she worried that the tea maker was going to replace her?

As far as home entertainment we have never had it so good, all formats in film and VP projection has its use...dont forget it wasn't that long ago that all you had was an old B/W tv which needed for you to get of your backside and give it a good whack to keep it going [Big Grin]

....ah! the good ole days [Smile]

| IP: Logged

Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006

posted July 09, 2017 01:00 PM

Regarding the term "Watching Television", I don't think that has any bearing on using a digital display. It is an old-time term that means exactly "watching whatever the networks will throw at me", and nothing could be further from the reality, digitally speaking, of putting up a Blu-Ray or an UHD disk for viewing.

Our 65-inch LG OLED 4K display is spectacular for viewing BRs (and a few UHD discs) including a lot of films from around the world that I would never ever be able to get on film, simply because either they were never released in Super-8 or 16mm, or the few un-faded prints of some titles are so expensive that it becomes absurd.

I love film; I always have. The giant reels under our bed testify to that :-) However, I also love the fact that such an abundance is available to me in digital form.
There is no reason to put one down just to praise the other, when both technologies exist for the same reason: to allow us to enjoy films.

Claus.

--------------------
"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)

| IP: Logged

Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted July 09, 2017 01:14 PM

I said it because with DVD/Blu Ray all you do is switch on and press play like when you watch TV. No cleaning gate checking alignment with the screen threading, changing reels dimming lights etc.

| IP: Logged

Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 09, 2017 02:24 PM

Speaking for myself, I'm a movie fan - particularly the period 1927-34.
If I had my way, I'd own each and every film from that era on 16mm. That ain't gonna happen so I'm more than happy with digital media. I want to see as many of these movies as I possibly can. For movies from the classic era, we've never had it so good.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 09, 2017 10:44 PM

We watched "A River Runs Through It" tonight. We've had the disk for at least a decade and haven't seen the movie look and sound that good since we saw it in the theater.

I don't think this has cooled my enthusiasm for film at all. As a matter of fact I've decided to get a 16mm machine before the end of the year.

VPs can be quite different animals than the projectors we are used to. I have two positions my usual sound machines occupy: right and left. (This is where my audio and power cables easily reach and it helps me to remember which machine is connected to which channel on my mixer.). There is a third center position ahead and between the usual two. If on special occasions I have a third machine rigged for 'scope or a slide projector or my son's silent machine this is where they go. (It's gotten up to four machines only once!...so far...)

So the first time I tried the VP it went in the guest spot. The picture was too big for the screen and started about mid-screen and went up to the ceiling. To get the picture on screen I had to move it about 8 feet forward and level with the bottom of the screen.

-So now I have a little table.

It also puts the VP a lot closer to the audience: Once I fought "hum", but now I have "fan".

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted July 10, 2017 12:06 PM

I remember later in the episode, she took a screwdriver to the tea machine and permanently wrecked it! (good for her).

At least, I'm glad I learned my lesson after I switched to laserdisc, and then went back to super 8, but there are some super 8 optical sound prints that i had at that time, that i have never been able to track down this second time thru ...

[Frown]

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 11, 2017 02:48 PM

I have yet to invest in digital projection. I'm sure I will eventually. I love watching movies on the source they were originally distributed on. It's nostalgic and adds an ambience that's like no other. Fade, emulsion scratches, splices, framing issues, projector clatter and all.

| IP: Logged

Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 11, 2017 03:23 PM

A lot of us operate on a "better than nothing" basis. Obviously the best case scenario is a mint condition film print in our gauge of choice that we can afford too.

-but that doesn't happen a lot of the time.

That's why all of us have a faded print of some movie that we really love: it's either that or nothing.

Video projection is the same thing. There are going to be movies out there that are rare or non existent as film prints, are too new to have been printed on small gauge film at all or we can't spend the rent money to buy those pie in the sky prints that are out there in ones and twos.

Here's a way to enjoy them on screen, even if it's not the ideal choice from a film collector's point of view.

It also opens up possibilities that we may never have considered before. In our house we are big fans of the Winter Olympics. All it will take to see them 8 feet wide in stereo next year is some new cabling.

I wanted to do something nice for my son the other day, so I let him plug his game console into the projector for a while. (Turns out it can receive Netflix...)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

| IP: Logged

David Skillern
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 582
From: South Wales
Registered: Apr 2006

posted July 15, 2017 05:35 AM

Hi Guys,

I agree with all of the points made here - if you can't view it on the one medium through cost or actual availability - you view it on Digital - I have Super 8 and 16mm and 2 Digital Projectors - an Hitachi on the ceiling in the one living room and an NEC in my den - however I've recently purchased a 4K LG 55 inch - so the Hitachi is getting a well earned rest at the moment.

| IP: Logged

All times are Central

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1 2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2