8mm Forum: "Goldfinger" in scope?

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Topic: "Goldfinger" in scope?

Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 24, 2005 03:20 PM

I'm still eyeing Ian Perry's print of "Goldfinger" on his latest list... but as I think this film really needs to be seen in widescreen, and there is no indication that this is a scope print, I wonder... does one exist?
Or is the one that's for sale maybe letterboxed?

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 24, 2005 05:56 PM

Um, Jan - Goldfinger was not made in Scope - so your chances of finding a scope print of it, are, aproximately, zero ... :-)

The original release was 1.66:1 (in Europe) They cropped it down to 1.85:1 for USA release. The negative was shot in 1.37:1 -- so the full frame prints probably have extra image at the top and bottom rather than having anything missing on the sides......

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 24, 2005 07:52 PM

AMAZING!! I've never heard of such a thing, making a cropped widescreen print from a fullscreen negative. Madness! [Eek!]

Anyway, thanks, now I have no further reservations about ordering the print from Perry's - except I'm still haggling with the $$ [Big Grin]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 24, 2005 11:07 PM

Hi Jan

They did it all the time -- they keep all the action within the 1.85:1 frame, but film the whole image. In fact, there's a modern process called "Super 35" which allows you to run the film anywhere from Scope ration (2.35:1) down to academy ratio (1.37:1). Many films were/are made this way...

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 25, 2005 12:25 AM

You know, I think I heard of this before. So again, you're saying that when I buy the Goldfinger print and it's fullscreen, I'll actually see MORE than if it were letterboxed or in scope format - is this correct? Basically with additional image instead of the black letterbox bars?

And if this is done so much, then why is it they show widescreen movies on TV in pan&scan format (zooming into the widescreen frame and omitting information on the sides), instead of just showing the full Super35 frame as originally filmed.... This is all very mysterious. [Eek!]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 25, 2005 04:59 AM

That's because not all films are made in Super 35....
Pan&Scan is only used for films that were made in scope
Films made in flat 1.85:1 ratios (but not super 35 or the equivalent) are often just cropped left and right, or else you'd see microphones and other stuff you aren't supposed to see...

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 25, 2005 09:05 AM

Many of the later Universal 8 releases were printed full frame so that either the mic boom or a camera flag (used to prevent lens flare) make quite a few distracting appearances and the general composition feels awkward (way too much head room).

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 25, 2005 10:43 PM

Oh, man, this is beginning to sound messy. This coming weekend, I'm sitting down with a cup of coffee and I'm reading the entire Film-Tech FAQ so I understand all of this. [Big Grin]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 26, 2005 01:24 AM

When I was an beginning projectionist for a film lab in Hollywood many years back we had to screen a film for Sly Stallone. He kept yelling at me to "Frame! Frame!" And I didn't know what he was talking about until the senior projectionist pointed out the boom mic at the top of the frame. OOps! [Smile]

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 587
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003

posted April 26, 2005 04:13 AM

Yeah,

They've been shooting film this way (full frame composed image for cropping to 'Widescreen' 1.85 etc) since the 50's. A give away generally will be title sequences that have a lot of ‘fresh air’ above and below the title graphics when viewed as a full frame 4:3 image.

The camera viewfinder has a graticule marked up for the theatrical ratio overlaid over the ‘full frame’ captured image. The cinematographer is supposed to keep camera tracks and booms etc out of ‘full frame’ but they do pop into frame from time to time and if you get to see an original 'full frame' version you'll see 'em. Also 2nd unit cameras often didn't use or were not supplied with the information or equipment to shoot in the 'full frame' method and you'd end up with some shots cropped to 'Widescreen' right on the original camera negative!!

The negative is usually printed down to make a master inter-negative ‘hard’ matted/cropped to the theatrical ratio for cinema release and ease of projection. The 'full frame' version (in theory) could be used for transfer direct to tape without the need to Pan/Scan or indeed 'centre crop' and loose the sides of a theatrical print image.

However that's the theory but in practice you'll come across all of the above (no doubt) for the same film title!

Of course the above refers to ‘spherical lensed’/‘flat’ prints and not to CinemaScope type ‘anamorphic’ shooting methods. Although (as has been stated in another posting) ‘full frame’/’silent frame’/’Super35’ cameras can capture a shot composed for CinemaScope type ratios without the need for an anamorphic lens on the camera (with anamorphic prints optically produced from the 'Scope area of the negative in the lab!).

Today 'Widescreen' 16:9 TV productions use a similar method when shooting productions but look to loose the edges of the frame for later cropping to 4:3 for some international markets where Widescreen transmissions are not available and a full frame image is required. Generally all of the above shooting techniques are called 'Shoot and Protect' i.e. shoot for the primary release market but protecting action for all other markets.

Try http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h2/tipsP.shtml for more info.

Rick.

[ April 27, 2005, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Ricky Daniels ]

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 26, 2005 06:21 PM

Rick,

what an informative read! Thanks for the fantastic explanations. [Smile]

OK, now who snagged the Goldfinger print before me? Raise your hands, ya hear me [Razz]

I just got email from Ian telling me it had already been sold by the time I ordered it. Ah, bummer - at least I just saved me a bunch of money. There'll be another chance somewhere, someday. [Smile]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God