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Author Topic: B&H 644 Cracked Worm Gear
Daniel Elliott
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Selsey, West Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2016


 - posted March 13, 2017 04:43 PM      Profile for Daniel Elliott   Email Daniel Elliott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello. So my B&H has what seems to be a very common problem. The projector will not move forward but will run in reverse just fine.
I opened it up and found out that the reason for the jamming on forward was because of a
large crack in the plastic worm gear.

Only thing i'm wondering is the procedure to replace it and where I can get the replacement part. I ordered a service manual so i'm hoping that contains a decent disassembly guide.
I have attached a photo of the worm gear.

Any advice on disassembling this to replace the gear would be very much appreciated. Apologies if these seem like very simple issues, i'm very new to 16mm so a lot of this is unfamiliar to me.

http://imgur.com/hOfj71O

Many thanks
-Daniel

EDIT: Sorry for the duplicate post. Was due to a browser glitch. Feel free to remove one of them.

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 13, 2017 05:44 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have these gears in stock and many more spares or I can sell you a fully serviced bell and howell similar to yours so you could use yours as a spare if you should have need to .I have about 4 in stock ask forum members who have bought projectors of me

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1061
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted March 13, 2017 10:11 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Other 16mm forums have numerous discussions regarding this issue. It is a very difficult process to replace the gear and not for an inexperienced person. There are several youtube videos showing the process on differnt models of B&H projectors.

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Daniel Elliott
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Selsey, West Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2016


 - posted March 14, 2017 06:28 AM      Profile for Daniel Elliott   Email Daniel Elliott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello.
Since I didnt pay anything for this projector, buying another isnt really an option for me at the moment. Is there anyone out there (preferably close to me) who would be able to replace the worm gear for a fee?
I think that seems like the best option for me at the moment.

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted March 14, 2017 06:53 AM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You're looking at around £150-£200

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 14, 2017 08:57 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Daniel
Replacing a worm is not for an unexperienced person to attempt, it is a skilled job for a professional. It is not just replacing the worm, there are many other items to be adjusted which require correct service equipment.
I can recommend my engineer who is a expert with 16mm projector repairs. I have just spoken to him and have his permission to quote approximately £250 for complete refurbishment of your 644.
I attach Kevin Brown's website for full details including his new contact numbers.
https://www.yell.com/biz/kb-cine-repairs-nottingham-8723722/

--------------------
Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 14, 2017 09:05 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Any engineer though,worth his or her salt, should be able to carry out this task with relative ease, it has to be said Maurice.

So long as you understand how the designers intended any mechanism to work and so long as you have the skills and necessary tools to facilitate this, no problem I'd say.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 14, 2017 09:49 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have had superb service from Kevin Brown for nigh on ten years now and would not consider using anyone else.

Are there many engineers left in this country who have the adequate knowledge to be proficient to service 16mm sound projectors, particularly the replacement of Bell & Howell worms?

--------------------
Maurice

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted March 14, 2017 10:04 AM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No Andrew...there is a difference between an engineer and a cinematic engineer. Another sweeping statement you've made! I know many engineers who would have no idea how to begin this job. And unless you have done the job, it's hard to comment. Have done about 10 now, though only for myself.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 14, 2017 10:16 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
That's why I used the words "worth their salt" Simon!

There are plenty around Maurice, plenty, it's not rocket science after all.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 14, 2017 11:03 AM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
hi Daniel I would have supplied and fitted you a gear for 125 but you have never even bothered to contact re a gear so it might be best to take the advice from other forum members

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 14, 2017 11:04 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
There are plenty around Maurice, plenty, it's not rocket science after all
Perhaps Andrew could list the professional engineers who can quote for replacing a worm on a 16mm Bell & Howell.

--------------------
Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 14, 2017 11:14 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
There are a quite few as you know who do this kind of thing commercially Maurice, but I wasn't talking about commercial cine repair services, simply engineers who would tackle this job with ease.

Simon is clearly a self professed person capable of such work, I know and have known plenty of proficient electrical and mechanical engineers in my lifetime that would eat this kind of work for breakfast, that's all my comments were intended as.
Not to make out its such a challenging venture for anyone who has the necessary know how and skill set, that's all Maurice.

Even the commercial projector repair people often liaise with one another when they occasionally get stuck on a certain dilemma and one or two I know pass on work to others when it's an electronically complex fault.

No one knows it all or can be an expert on all machines. Much of it is simply down to knowledge, learning a particular model design complex as intended originally, and an ability to repair any electro mechanical object to a very high standard, that's all.

There is even a video or two posted online showing individuals who feel confident enough, how to do this work.
I think one of the ones I've seen may have come from the E.V.E. workshop and may have featured one of our forum members here and elsewhere in his daily work.

16mm machines are often far less complex in the electronic aspect of things than their complex Super 8mm counterparts.
They are equally much larger and easier to access in many instances. This is one of the reasons why some commercial cine engineers no longer want Super 8mm work, that and the fact some spares now are very difficult to find.
Often the sheer expense of Super 8mm work deems it to be uneconomically viable now for many of their owners.

They seem to just scrap a machine with any kind of in-depth fault and go and buy another one instead sadly.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted March 14, 2017 11:41 AM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Go with David, Daniel. You will find him fair in his dealings as well as being very reasonably priced! You will not regret it!

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 14, 2017 12:25 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
There are a quite few as you know who do this kind of thing commercially Maurice, but I wasn't talking about commercial cine repair services, simply engineers who would tackle this job with ease
I only know of two engineers who would readably tackle a worm change on a 16mm Bell & Howell and all the work which is necessary to set up the projector afterwards. They are both professional cine engineers.
It's not to say that any competent engineer couldn't do the job but they would need to have the correct worm to hand, all the necessary manuals and the special tools.

--------------------
Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 14, 2017 12:46 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
The parts yes, the special tooling,jigs etc etc, they would make or seek themselves like I've had to for the eccentrics adjustments on the Bauer models I have.

The manuals, maybe, maybe not Maurice.

These are important for recommended lubricants, mechanical set points and of course electronic schematics. But many of the service manuals I personally have,contain a great deal of information that is handy to know, but not exactly necessary to be able to successfully repair one.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Brian Fretwell
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Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014


 - posted March 14, 2017 03:49 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Phil at CHC advertises worm gears for B&H. But from what I gather from others here changing it is one thing but getting the projector adjusted right to work again is much more difficult.

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Daniel Elliott
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Selsey, West Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2016


 - posted March 14, 2017 03:56 PM      Profile for Daniel Elliott   Email Daniel Elliott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
hi Daniel I would have supplied and fitted you a gear for 125 but you have never even bothered to contact re a gear so it might be best to take the advice from other forum members
Sorry, i'm not quite sure what you mean here. I would be happy to pay this for the supply and fitting of a replacement gear although it may have to be in a few weeks time when I have a bit of extra cash to spend.

Many thanks.

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 14, 2017 04:22 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can fit remove and fit a new gear in about 2 hours I have done about 40 gear changes in fact when bell and howell seized trading my father bought most of the spares that bell and howell had we had over 200 bell and howell gears and belts lamps motors etc but over the coarse of 30 years most have these have been sold I think I have about 20 gears left .the the 644 652 655 and 658 are a doodle to work on as there is plenty of room .i turn out with my travelling fairground in a few weeks time so unles I get it in next 5 days it will be impossible to do till then end of novemeber might be best to get one of maurices contacts he seems to be in the know

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Daniel Elliott
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Selsey, West Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2016


 - posted March 14, 2017 07:25 PM      Profile for Daniel Elliott   Email Daniel Elliott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah fair enough. It's a bit of a drive away but I think 'KB Cine Repairs' seems like the best person to deal with as they seem to be very highly recommended and a full service could be worth it in the long run.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 15, 2017 03:27 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Daniel
A very wise move.
The 644 was introduced in 1962 and is now long in the tooth. At the time it was top of the range with its optical and magnetic playback, it can also record full track on magnetic.
Changing the worm entails completely stripping down the projector, during this, many other items will reveal that more work may be needed.
I can assure you that when Kevin has finished your 644 will be like new and will give many years of pleasure.

--------------------
Maurice

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Terry Sills
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Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted March 15, 2017 04:13 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's a rumour circulating that Andrew used to have a full set of Encyclopaedia Brittanicas - but his wife threw them out because Andrew knows everything [Big Grin]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted March 15, 2017 04:38 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
That rumour would be incorrect then Terry. [Wink]

She kept them in the end! Ha ha.

There, that's something else I know for certain! [Big Grin]

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 15, 2017 08:16 AM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I hope everything goes ok I could have sorted this for him I hope the gear is a good one and not a copy or one that has been machined , as I have know these to seize after a bout 20 mins then it all has to be stripped down again with another new gear ,you cant beat genuine bell and howell gears like I have .let us all know on here when you get it back and cost of having it repaired

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011


 - posted March 15, 2017 01:01 PM      Profile for David Guest   Email David Guest   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
yes I think he passed his books on to Maurice

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