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Author
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Topic: I must say how times have changed.....
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 08, 2008 10:58 AM
I totally agree Chip. If you go to the A/V forums you will find that the latest home theater 'status symbol' is a $6000.00 anamorphic lens in front of your video projector. Well, just about everyone on this forum has been projecting CinemaScope with an anamorphic lens for years, if not decades!
Yes, I think the people with their feet still into film projection, like yourself and everyone here, are the true home theater showmen.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 08, 2008 07:16 PM
I would ask if they are true film buff, or merely home entertainment system buffs? Most of these same people, if they had the choice, would get rid of film grain and film in general.
It really is hard to describe what I feel when I loop up that film. When I look at indivisual frames and loving every minute of it.
... even the search for the "perfect print" and looking at two prints, side by side, in regualr sunlight, and comparing levels of blacks, sharpness, ect.
Or like today, though slightly faded, projecting an optical Super 8 of "Scandalous" (testing before listing on ebay), and just being stunned by just how incredibly sharp the image is, with no video visual noise when freeze framed!
The poor fools are truly not film buffs. Video buffs, yes, Story buff's perhaps, but not true film buffs!
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Steve Klare
Film Guy
Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 08, 2008 11:47 PM
The love of film is great because it is so multi-dimensional. It can be about watching films, or collecting films, or showing films, or making films, or collecting equipment or building a home theater, or any combination. It can even be about jawing about it with a bunch of other folks on this forum! This keeps it interesting, year after year.
What makes it stink is when narrow minded people try to tear down others who see things differently according to their own prejudices. The biggest prejudices by far are those of our consumer culture that tell us we shouldn't be happy with anything with packaging already gone to the landfill. ("More!, More!, C'mon! you haven't reached your credit limit yet! We'll get you there!")
On the other hand, based on my own prejudices I kinda like the way this guy looks at it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOL8FlSYjT0
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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 09, 2008 10:39 AM
Hmmmm.
I agree folks. It is multi-dimensional. I must admit, I was surprised when I started getting back into the hobby and found that there were actually people who remembered Super 8 fondly, but not only remembered it, still had it!!
Also, to find that there were still lots of film product out there.
I will say something curious here. Though I have a much bigger collection than I did twenty years ago, I have spent far less for my collection than the collection that I had twenty years ago, except in the rare case of scope features like "Alien", or Star Wars or most especially, "Close Encounters".
On top of all that, to me, there's something special to being able to say, "You got the special edition on BLU-RAY? I have an original film print of that film, yeah, that's right, the very "film transfer" element that they talk about in restoration ... THAT'S what I own.
... and, in most cases, they are a little envious.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted August 09, 2008 12:12 PM
Personally, I think one has to step back a bit when judging these things.
We (us here) like to play with projectors and collect films. The handling/loading/tweaking is part of the fun for us.
At the same time, one has to keep in mind that that is what we enjoy, not what your average viewer generally cares about. If you show them a film they enjoy, they enjoy it. Same with a DVD.
Now, people in some cases will find it fun to look at your gear since it is so 'old', but in the end, for them (most of the time) it's the movie that counts, not the technology.
I like Super-8 and 16mm (trust me, I wouldn't have three 6000-ft reels under our bed if it weren't so.) I bought a Xenon projector to do justice to those reels.
Now, for all the times when I want to see something that is on DVD, I similarly want the most faithful playback experience. That is a 58-inch hi-def plasma with a PS3 for Blu-ray playback and either Dolby Digital or DTS sound, depending on how the film is mixed.
The screen was $3000, and that was the price of admission to have a very high-quality display that could do justice to the Blu-Rays, same as the Eiki X3500 was the cost to show my 16mm films with appropriate quality.
Different formats, different demands.
My view is that just as we want to do justice to the films when we project them, we should do no less when showing a DVD.
Why?
Because we are (I hope) first and foremost FILM LOVERS, in the historical sense of loving the art form and its impact. We should want to do justice to how the director would like the film seen, whether it be celluloid or disc.
Let's face it: a lot of what we ideally would want on Super-8 or 16mm never will be available in full-length, high-quality prints (tastes differ, but I'm sure you know what I mean.)
So, it's Blu-Ray as the closest alternative in terms of resolution and such. It's just the way it is.
Make the best of both worlds, and enjoy.
Claus.
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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)
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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler
Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted August 09, 2008 01:05 PM
Sorry but i disagree,i say once and iŽll say it again,DIGITAL is just TV PROJECTED, film is the real thing,yes i know..im a purist!! but think of it ..digital never ,never match the texture of film because there no texture on a pixel or bit,in my job i use sometimes digital for some things but i must say that if you could see how different is when compared with the film image....as i say Film is the only stuff that have that natural and true look,i respect the others that have a Vp but i think that a true film collector will never buy one,i dont try to disrepected the others forum memebers that have one of course is just that i think that vp sucks.....why see electronic and cold cold pictures if i can see them as they were made originally.Again ,pardon me if i offend another forum members who has Vp,is was not intended
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As Steven Spielberg says....
Nothing beats old school projection. Digital is just an imitation.
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 09, 2008 04:44 PM
A couple of years ago I was criticized somewhat by Barry Littlechild in Projections magazine, for stating my opinion that the super 8mm print of 'That's Entertainment 3 ' was superior to the projected DVD. Two years later I have not changed my opinion. The color saturation and contrast (at least with my equipment) is much better on the S8 print. Same thing with Disney prints. If ever there was a marriage made in heaven, it is Disney and super 8. Super 8 Disney prints have a unique beauty and texture which no DVD that I have seen can approach. Every time I project my CinemaScope print of 'Lady and the Tramp' the look of the picture just blows me away.
Now lets be honest here. Projected DVD can also look fantastic, and , just like with super 8, it all depends on the source material. I cannot imagine going back to a world without DVD, it has enabled me and my family and friends to enjoy dozens of great films with a picture quality very close to what you would expect in the cinema. Films that have never and will never be available for me on Super 8. Everyone who comes to my house (including Chip!) are usually very impressed with my DVD projection.
I love both film and DVD and will continue to use both. Like Osi, there is nothing to me more enjoyable than tinkering with a projector, cleaning film, or running a really good film print.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted August 09, 2008 10:48 PM
Just to weigh in on it again.
One person suggested that the quality of DVD or Blu-ray is better. I would have to admit that in many cases, that may be true. There is no fear of scratches ever being on the film transfer, nor color fade ...
... but I know that it's artificial, as I think Jose stated. It's video. I even remember watching "Casablanca" (restored) on a laptop computer, but it just didn't feel real to me, (and this was when I was out of the hobby, back in the late 1990's).
"Where is the projection unit?" I thought. The image was truly great, but it was video. I really don't think I can truly put it into words.
It's one of the reasons why I love the optical sound Super 8, (as well as the many modern prints by Derann, the already mentioned Derann/Disney's or, to be truthful, even the original Disney releases).
As Paul Adsett has done, I have a optical sound print of a feature, (actually more than one), and I'll freezeframe the DVD
and then freezeframe the same frame, (approx) on the film, and there is truly no comparison. Optical sound super 8 is well known for having very little film grain to speak of, looking quite grand!
and by the way, I LUV film grain, whether it looks like a snow storm or quite fine.
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted August 11, 2008 01:55 PM
Well...we ARE into deep waters here, but I have to side with Claus on this subject. Unlike that famous 60's phrase, " the medium is the message", I believe it is NOT the message. We appreciate the movie...writing, production, acting, etc....and there is room for all kinds of ways of delivering the movie...online computer, Ipod, 70mm....Imax, Super 8, 16mm...dvd projection.
I did have an at first disheartening experience a couple of weeks ago when I participated in a church sponsored "drive in" outdoor movie. They were showing Alvin and the Chipmunks on DVD projection as the feature on a 10 foot screen outdoors. I was asked to come and show some "old" cartoons before the feature....on film, of course. The wanted it to start before it got really dark so I was at a disadvantage to start with. Also my Marc 300 16mm machine developed a little problem, so I had to hastily replace it with a standard machine. ...but I strung a drive in clock, previews and two top Warners cartoons and ran it and it looked pretty good on the screen...but when they turned that dvd on.....it made my film look and sound very primitive...at least to me. It was louder, much better sound...and brighter....and looked very sharp....unless you were within about 15 feet of the screen and then the picture dissolved into lines and pixels. But for most of the audience, the image and sound were better. HOWEVER....when the evening was over, the audience members came over to me and said they enjoyed the two cartoons, One Froggy Evening and Rabid Season, more than the feature and said it reminded them more of the drive in we were trying to recreate. I felt much better...and this Friday we are having another movie..and the Marc 300 will be there and that should really help my presentation. People seem to be still quite interested in the films and projectors as well. Maybe I should say then that the medium is PART of the message.
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at the quality, times have certainly changed and Joe public has never had it so good well I am using our work computor at the moment have the Kinoton just 10 feet away with a full session of Kung Fu Panda and Batman is just about to finnish better get back to work ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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as mentioned most people think its video or DVD and when you chat with them about it they become really interested, funny thing though our latest manager keeps refering to film as video tape ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
and leave it to the kiddies to run. 
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