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Author Topic: Filming in 16mm or S8.
Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 21, 2009 01:59 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi folks.
I am interested - those of you who film using actual film - why do you use this rather than video these days?
This is a genuine question. I have no wish to reopen the Film vs Digital question again.
While I can understand, and am an ardent supporter of film over any digital medium for the viewing of film, I have never used film for actual filming. For home movies wouldn't video be more convenient? No having to get the thing developed, etc. Incidentally I am referring to home movies (as in holidays and kids growing up, etc.)and not actual use as an artistic medium.
Any input would be interesting.
Thanks.

-Mike

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted February 21, 2009 03:06 PM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
I usally shoot "special" home movies with film. The format depends usually on the situation and how many weight I have to carry with me, for example on my honeymoon I filmed with a 16mm, while at the LuccaComics&Games Convention I used a double super8 because I had to move quickly in the crowd.

Apart from the technical difference between film and digital, I realized that when I use my 8mm or 16mm cameras I'm more concentrated on what I am filming and I try to capture as many good sequences as I can.

Instead, when I use my digital camera, I just switch it on and let it run sometimes forgetting that is running.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted February 22, 2009 10:29 AM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Michael,

This is actually a good question you post here! [Smile]

I´m in my mid-forties so when I grew up there was NOTHING but film apart from professional video gear used by broadcast television companies. Then came lightweight affordable video gear for consumers in the 1980s, the quality was atrocious compared to good 16mm equipment.

For someone in his or her twenties today, using film cameras instead of DV, HDV must seem like madness -WHICH INDEED IT IS, to some extent! [Smile]
The only way I could explain it, is if I shoot something with super8 or 16mm, I can obtain images with extremely good contrast, colour depth, resolution, and that elusive "Film Look" -images quickly start to take on a 3D quality (due to the aforementioned reasons) and objects look and feel like the real thing (skin, wood, fabric), rather than like coloured surfaces. The fact that it is expensive actually adds to it; these are brief, exquisite images, which, like jewellry, will look the same to my grandchildren decades from now! [Smile]

For a lovely illustration of the "Film Look" check out the Blade Runner Final Cut box-set; even some of the outtakes look like Rembrandts! [Smile]

But we need to keep buying, using this stuff. Kodak/Fuji killing these products would surely doom it all... [Frown] Hopefully that´s a long way off, though, as many blockbuster movies today open on 10 000 screens -that´s an unimaginable amount of 35mm print stock!

Cheers
Lars

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 139
From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted February 22, 2009 12:37 PM      Profile for John Hermes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One sad occurance was when Kodachrome was discontinued. Kodak's Super 8 Ekatchrome 64 replacement is definitely a step backwards. The color is good, but, oh, that grain. It just doesn't have that "magic" look of Kodachrome. I transfer film for a living, and when I come across well exposed 16mm Kodachrome movies from the 1950s, it's like stepping into a time machine. Wow. Certainly, Kodachrome was one of the great inventions in photography, and is sorely missed.

--------------------
John Hermes

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted February 22, 2009 12:57 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree, but Kodachrome isn´t completely gone; Wittner sell it loaded in super8 cassettes and Dwayne´s process it. There was a "please don´t discontinue Kodachrome" petition online back then, and I urged anyone I came across to sign up, but after a couple of weeks there were only a few hundred names on the list, GLOBALLY [Eek!] , so it´s really a miracle Kodak stuck it out for as long as they did.

I think E64 looks decent if it´s well exposed. In low light and shooting wide open it´s not too much fun (grainy).

Cheers
Lars

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Mark Norton
Master Film Handler

Posts: 330
From: Hampton Hill, Middlesex, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted February 22, 2009 01:14 PM      Profile for Mark Norton   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike,
I have had a choice to make, wether to buy a new Digital Video Camera or to have my aging super 8 cameras repaired, the cost I expect would be the same.
As well as 8mm, I've got 1080p video projection so I could also project my digital films, if I bought a new camera, alongside my old super 8 home movies.
A friend gave me a demo on his new Panasonic HD Cam and his films looked good, but I can't seem to find the same enthusiastic interest in this new technology.
Currently I use 3 cameras, Nizo Pro., Eumig Nautica and Fujica P2 mostly with Wittner's Fuji Velvia 50D, as it comes in super and single 8 cartridges. After editing I video the film straight off the screen and load on to the Mac, where in Garageband i'll make the soundtrack and burn to disc. Then I show the film on the GS1200 synced to the sound on the disc. I don't capture sound live, but i'll write down any dialogue then have that person speak in to the mike when it's on the mac.

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Lars Pettersson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Registered: Jan 2007


 - posted February 22, 2009 01:34 PM      Profile for Lars Pettersson   Email Lars Pettersson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,
how do you sync the GS1200 to the sound on the disc?

Cheers
Lars

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Mark Norton
Master Film Handler

Posts: 330
From: Hampton Hill, Middlesex, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted February 22, 2009 02:19 PM      Profile for Mark Norton   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lars,
I use an academy leader at the start of the finished film. Then video the whole thing and transfer to the mac. When making the sound track on the mac I record a 'ping' {any noise will do} at the 'start' frame on the leader. So the 'start' frame on the leader and the 'ping' on the recording are the sync points.
I have one of Pedro's sync boxes, the P1008GS-U, plug the left and right analogue audio from the DVD in to this box and this will slave the GS1200. Position the 'start' frame in the projector gate. Play the DVD and the 'ping' off the soundtrack starts the GS1200.
Complicated to explain but in practice showing films in this way is easy peasy, you can't get the sync wrong and it works every time.
I started by having films sound striped, but after the stripe all fell off of one film I made with Kodak 64T and I had to resort back to the dvd sound master, i've used this method since.

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted February 22, 2009 02:52 PM      Profile for Simon McConway     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I film in Super 8 mostly, but also recently in Standard 8 and Single 8. I bought a Bolex 16 mm camera (from this forum) but have only used a few feet of the 100 foot reel of film. I don't and won't own a video camera; it's just that video cameras don't feel as good as cine cameras...you can't hear/feel the film going through. And, there's more skill needed and more joy when you actually produce a perfectly exposed reel (more difficult on 16 mm and on Standard 8!) The point about waiting for the film to come back from processing...for me, it's part of the whole joy! Film is readily available...I recently rediscovered Standard 8...finding it quite cheap and great to use, after stupidly thinking that film wasn't available. Thanks to Edward Nowill (see prev post in the forum) film is being reperforated here in the UK for £15. It's a joy! And, I'm adding to a family archive begun on film in the 1950s.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 22, 2009 04:20 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats all interesting stuff. Thanks.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 22, 2009 09:14 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For me it's simple.

I am not a movie maker nor an artist.

I just want to shoot my kids and any special events and watch it over and over again.

With video, I have thousand hours of duration but sitting in the desk for nothing.

With an expensive of one cart we are eliminated to shoot only important moment. We have edited the film right when we are shooting.

With a video we catch everything and thinking to edit later. But it never happened due to my other works.

simple heh,

--------------------
Winbert

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 23, 2009 09:53 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I use both Super-8 film and Digital Video, but they are different things for different projects. My typical Super-8 film is usually about a topic and it has music as a sound track. The DV is for the traditional "home movie" kind of stuff and is more or less the camera as a set of eyes and ears in the room when something happens. There is no editing involved, and not even a title other than the label on the tape. Of course there are overlaps between these two ideas, but where either DV or film is really great for a project, the other won't work out as well.

The deciding factor is mostly the difference between the ease of recording sound with video vs. the nice bright, big picture I can get from film.

Making a film is often an end to itself and there is a long project between the idea, the camera, the editor and the screen. Editing is very hands on: preparing a cut list, sorting out shots, splicing it together at the editing bench.

Video as I experience it is plugging a cable between the camera and the TV and pushing "Play".

I don't miss the lack of sync sound when I'm working with film. I actually find sound to be kind of a pain sometimes. Not only is it a second set of variables to fight when I'm shooting a scene, but I find it makes the camera intrude on the subject because voices in the room often start talking about it:

"How much time is left on that tape?"
"Did you charge the battery?"
"Why can't I see anything?...Take the lens cap off!"

I’d really hate to invest in sound film and get these results back.

It goes to show why commercial studios shoot on sound stages if they can get away with it and dub a lot of sound instead of catching it on scene. Sound comes at us from every angle and is a lot harder to control than the visuals we aim the lens at.

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

Posts: 4001
From: New Zealand
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted February 23, 2009 01:04 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For me filming in Super8 or Digital video depends on the subject and what I will use the end results for. For the most part shooting Super8 over the years has been used for recording mostly family stuff "I have not used sound film" but pre-striped silent and long ago did my own striping with the "Rexette" it worked well. I also used Super8 film for other things such as an air show we were involved in taken at the Aero club I once worked back in the 70s. Its good to look back at all that old footage on a larger than TV screen and it still looks as good as the day I took it.

I must admit [Roll Eyes] that I did enjoy using a DV camera at work on our last little project, recording the behind the scenes at the cinema. The LCD screen "very handy" and the ease of use, plus the auto focus and a more fluid use of the camera made everything come across very well. I edited down what we had taken "cut things right back" put titles on it and with the final cut "sort of speak" recorded on a seperate tape deck the narration in sync to what we were veiwing "that was fun" [Smile] after that it was a simple transfer using all sound source's being fed into a four channel mixer "home made" onto the final DVD. One such copy was put onto a 100 year long life disc just in case [Wink] this was one project that was more suited to DV recording. I intend to get out and take more Super8 soon but unlike using a DV camera I will have to be a lot more carefull with my finger on the trigger [Smile]

Graham.

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