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Topic: Film Collecting Price Guide.

David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 17, 2017 05:33 AM

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I think it may be time for some person or persons to compile
a film collectors price guide for second hand prints with a film
condition grading system and rarity value included.

That way we should at least have some objective price guide in
order to put an end to all this subjective malarkey and Ebay crap.

I think most UK film dealers come close to giving such a realistic objective price guide but I feel we would be better
served if it was to be compiled by someone else.

Now where do I start ? Or are there any volunteers ? Anyone ?
[Wink]

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[ April 17, 2017, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: David Hardy ]

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Joe Caruso
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 17, 2017 10:53 AM

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This is a very difficult task - Unlike other collector items, they HAVE a market price and had to start somewhere - Just where do we begin...35mm Scope Trailers, $45 each? What type of film would constitute a price, what is an antique, what is rare, what is common to the general public - Boxed? Price goes up, but to where? Cardboard boxes, plastic, metal - And how do we know what are re-vamped styles, wanting to resemble originals - Take 16mm, Film Classic Dupes are $75, $65 - 16mmDupont Origianls are $195? - When you have open and "live" shows, the dickering and bickering goes on one-on-one, prices are agreed or trade - Film is very existential - Coloring books, on average are $40, Coins, Stamps, Toys, Model Kits - All these and more had someone start with a standard and basic price - If a Super 8mm Keystone print of THE NOISE OF BOMBS that happens to be in a choice box, goes for $25 - How come a similar item at a show will boast only $10 - One would have to start with film catalogs from yore and price accordingly, but again, this will be very divergent for any gauage and format - Don't pay any attention to this post - Shorty

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 17, 2017 01:30 PM

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Joe thanks for your input to this topic.
Some very interesting points you make there.
Here in the UK we have a Record Collectors Price guide.
Also in the USA there is The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide.
Here in the UK we have The Comic Book Price Guide on the internet.

Of course prices do vary a bit between UK and USA values but
they are great guides and a good starting point for collectors.
Even if they are not definitive they are a sensible middle way
approach.

I don't see a Film Collectors Price guide as an impossible task.
It could have various contributors valuating the different gauges and genres in general.
That way collectors would not get ripped off by paying to much when buying a print in a certain condition.

Also the same can apply when selling. The book value could be a guide to the seller.

[Smile]

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Mike Newell
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: United Kingdom
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posted April 17, 2017 01:46 PM

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David

You would need two guides one for film collectors and one for memorabilia buyers/ collectors who I suspect are creating a lot of the mad prices👀

Look at what Dealers are quoting and look at eBay two different universes.

Mike

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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posted April 17, 2017 02:19 PM

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Nice idea, but surely an impossible task, given the huge variation in condition of used 16mm prints in circulation. The whole subject of condition itself, never mind the issue of originals vs dupes vs reductions, is too subjective.
There would need to be a certain amount of agreed categorisation but there are way too many variables for this to be possible.
Maybe it might be a bit easier for Super 8... ??

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted April 17, 2017 03:20 PM

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As has been shown by the "film destruction posts",and as Michael says,this is just too subjective to give a firm evaluation of a films condition. Ive recently returned one feature that for me,had far too many lines all over the place,but it was sharp,steady and good sound,and I liked the film! But I knew that for me,those lines would spoil it every time I looked at it.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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posted April 18, 2017 02:27 AM

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The grading by sellers of gramophone records seems to work very well as it is generally accepted, but the grading is done by the seller.

But films are not gramophone records.

There are too many variables with films. Our known dealers and fellow members do a good service without interference. Buyers are usually pleased and any problem buys are quickly sorted out.

But eBay is a different kettle of fish. With astronomical prices being reached it is probably best left alone by serious film collectors who might get their fingers burnt.

The old expression of "an object is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay" still holds good.

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Maurice

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 18, 2017 05:37 AM

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Thanks for those replies and opinions guys.

However I am not to into this 'subjective' debate.

A print is either good condition or it is not.
Its overall condition can be evaluated objectively by close inspection on a rewind bench and projection.

If a print is scratched and/ or cinched it is damaged.
If a print has shrunk it is damaged.
If a print has torn and stretched perforations it is damaged.
If a print has a lot of splices it is damaged.
If a print is badly buckled and warped it is damaged.
If a print is dirty or oily it is damaged via neglect.
If a print is fading or has faded it has worn out.
If a print has poor picture quality its a bad copy.
If a print has poor sound quality its a bad sound transfer.

All the above can be demonstrated and defined objectively for
all to see and hear. These are all DEFECTS..

Now if all/any of the above is not found to be true then i will
go and burn my Cinema Projectionist Certificate it took me
Three and a half years of my life to qualify for.

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Wink]

[Wink]

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Paul Browning
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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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posted April 18, 2017 07:06 AM

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It works for used cars so why not for used films, with the co operation of all parties it could work. Some people would only buy a used car from a main dealer, given that the price is higher all the checks would have been done for you, and there are those who will chance there arm at "Joe's used car's lot" at a lower price, with less checks and more hidden agenda's.

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Graham Sinden
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posted April 18, 2017 07:11 AM

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And there is so much variation with cars. Some have paint chips in various places, some have non standard mirrors replaced, internal modifications to engine etc. But there are several price buying guides we all look at before buying a used car, so I dont see why there cant be one for film and projectors. The difference of course is the number of prints available compared to the number of cars made.

Graham

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Mark Mander
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posted April 18, 2017 07:43 AM

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I think it's more a case of there's the film that's the price and grab it while you can at the moment, not all dealers check the films so that idea is out for me about paying more as it's less of a risk. Stick to the people you can trust or had good dealings with over the years and you won't go far wrong, car dealers want to make maximum profits and being in the motor trade for 32 years I know that not all cars are as described, the grading of films is the same I've found too with certain dealers, Mark

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
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posted April 18, 2017 10:25 AM

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I have a great deal of respect and faith for all our remaining dealers here in the UK. Long may they continue to sell.

They all do a great job in describing the print condition and I have always found in the few times they have got it wrong they always allow a return a refund or are willing to reduce the asking price if the film is not as described.

However i still feel a price guide would be a valuable tool as
we head into an uncertain future for this hobby of ours should
all our established and trustworthy dealers disappear from the
market place and others may take their place.

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004

posted April 18, 2017 10:40 AM

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the thing about the dealers is that they will refund if the print is not as expected. by their own admission they cant view every print all the way through,it would take for ever.
A price guide would only work if everyone stuck to it, I just cant see that happening.

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Paul Browning
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posted April 18, 2017 10:59 AM

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The motor trade is just an example of how it could work, as a guide as David is inferring. There are many parameters to consider, but it could be boiled down to the important one's, as David has already listed, perhaps a compare the cine film dot com is needed.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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posted April 18, 2017 11:04 AM

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A big problem you would run into with this is the variability of markets. Any price you established 6 months before a stock market crash would go out the window a week afterwards.

We sold a house in 2009: we know all about this!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted April 18, 2017 11:10 AM

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I honestly believe among the remaining dealers, there is a general pricing structure already in use. Certainly the ones I have experience in using for Super 8mm film there appears to be anyhow.

With Super 8mm, I have seen a slight increase in prices from these guys these past few years, but I feel this only reflects what is happening within the hobby for non faded prints in general as time now passes by since most were readily available.

Even the dealers left now,will take it to an outside market though for special titles they feel will appeal to collectors of all kinds, not only films.

It is mainly only at auction where things can go ridiculous.
Supply and demand heavily influences then though.

Two prints of the Lion King sold last night at auction. Both were very good seemingly but from the two, it was the earlier and slightly cheaper one in the end, that I would have preferred from the two.

By the time there was only one more print left to bid and choose upon, the price went up by around 100 euros.

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Mark Mander
Phenomenal Film Handler

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posted April 18, 2017 11:21 AM

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Surely it comes down to what your prepared to pay, it's supply and demand and a guide won't make any difference to that, it really is an impossible and pointless task due to the many different factors from film to film, if it's a new item then it's got a price tag, but after its been used, scratched, spliced, lost it's box, LPP, Agfa, faded etc etc then i can't see it, Mark

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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posted April 18, 2017 12:10 PM

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OK here's a little exercise.

Put a price on this -
- AGFA 1S print of THE BIRDS; pretty sure it's an original but may be a reduction or an excellent dupe; average 2-3 splices per reel; some light, but visible, lines throughout; lines somewhat heavier at reel ends and beginnings; excellent sound; no vinegar smell at all, but the print takes up a bit loosely on my projector.

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David Ollerearnshaw
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posted April 18, 2017 01:22 PM

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What's the problem with prices? If someone wants to pay $200 or $2000 they will.

One man's mint is another's like new.

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Tom Spielman
Master Film Handler

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posted April 18, 2017 03:09 PM

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When looking for Super 8 cameras I often consult Super8wiki. It's a valuable resource that provides camera specs and a lot of other nice information.

It also has a used price guideline with a year the price applies to. And the problem is that they're woefully out of date. So even if it were possible to establish guidelines for titles now, in a few short years the prices would be meaningless unless someone is going to be committed to the work of keeping it all updated.

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 18, 2017 04:26 PM

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Michael... I would rate that print as Poor Condition assuming its a Super 8mm feature on say 400 foot spools.
Therefore £ 3.50p per reel as its a damaged print.

Tom ... Yes the guide would have to be updated annually.
Just like Record and Comic book price guides. [Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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posted April 18, 2017 05:02 PM

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I was thinking 16mm but...ok, let's say Super 8.
Everybody agree with David's rate?

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015

posted April 18, 2017 05:17 PM

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Thanks Michael i await other replies regarding this price. [Wink]

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
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posted April 18, 2017 05:39 PM

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David is doing his best here to ensure we all have a measured and agreed guide to film buying and selling prices. I agree prices sometimes do go OTT especially on Ebay and sometimes by direct sale too (guilty as charged earlier this year for buying poo condition prints at gold standard prices myself).

Unfortunately though to try and cover every possible condition and rarity factor with films will be a cumbersome task both to create and wade through as there are so many more variables especially as we don't even truly know how many prints were out there in the first place.

Many years ago (late 70's / early 80's) I had a large collection of 50's rock n roll records. The rare record price guides (ie: Buygone Records which pre-dated Record Collector Magazine) were just that merely a guide based on the knowledge and collections of other collectors records. They were very good at providing a catalogue of records to look out for, the rarity of such releases and versions available, but even then it was down to the buyer and seller, either face to face or mail order, to agree to a price that suited both parties. So not really any different to now when buying films just with the internet involved now rather than Movie Maker ads or Exchange & Mart back in the day.

The one thing any collectables price guide seems unable to take account of is current desirability. The recent high price trends on some Super 8 features on Ebay are achieved by one or two bidders driving the price up between each other and as long as they can afford it and pay up in the end who really cares?

The best price guides in my opinion are to be found on these very forums hence Doug asks us to leave film and equipment prices visible after the sale for others to refer to later. If the film or equipment sells than the price must be right. If it sits there unsold then the seller obviously needs to rethink their pricing.

Kevin

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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posted April 18, 2017 05:46 PM

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Wise words of wisdom once again Kevin. [Wink]

[Wink]

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