8mm Forum: Rewinding Films- A Question

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Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on December 22, 2003, 12:35 PM:

Here is another one.

Can you over rewind films? Are mylar based less susceptible? How do you judge the right degree of rewind pressure? How do you know if you have over rewound them?

Happy Festives

Tony

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on December 22, 2003, 01:03 PM:

Your signature clearly states 'Expert Film Handler'.
Then you should know! [Big Grin]

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on December 22, 2003, 03:03 PM:

Barry,

Wrong Barry. I am afraid that is not my "signature". Not my fault the forum was designed the way it is! Personally I don't happen to believe there is such a thing as an Expert!

But hey, thanks for a very helpful reply- much appreciated- it has added greatly to my understanding of all things super 8 [Frown]

Brad- can you reset my counter to 0 so I don't get any more of this kind of comment please or should I re-register as a newbie?

Happy Christmas! Season of Goodwill.
[Mad]

Tony

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on December 22, 2003, 04:21 PM:

Tony

Still a newbie myself [relatively speaking] so can't offer any proper advice on this one, only to say that whilst I'm rewinding either with the re-wind arms or projector I tend to hold a finger against the spool to keep the film straight and tight[ish]between the two spools, that just seems to be enough to make it wind up evenly and with no light showing through anywhere which presumably helps to keep dust and stuff out. Like you I'd be interested to know if there is some reason for making the spools tighter or looser.

Mike [Smile]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 22, 2003, 05:48 PM:

Well Barry lets have your answer.
There are many reasons why people are on this forum and although Tony ia an "Expert Handler" it may not be down to just his film knowledge. It maybe that 100 odd posts are down to other talents such as splicing or shooting film. We all have our areas of expertise so whats yours? [Mad]

Kevin.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on December 22, 2003, 06:57 PM:

Back to the topic of rewinding (or winding) film. It should be tightly wound on a reel such that it will not slide on itself (thus dust would create lateral scratches) or sag.

An improperly wound reel would have slack such that an "newbie" could pull the film and thus cinch it. HOWEVER doing so would deface the print by creating what's called cinch marks as any dirt or dust would mark the film base and emulsion with short vertical scratches.

In laboratories, devices called tight-winds are used to put film on cores and provide a tight transportable film pancake.

You will quickly learn the amount of back tension necessary for a proper wind. Also different film stocks will display different winding characteristics. This is common in 16mm and 35mm with Technicolor IB prints and old diacetate black and white film.

Unfortunately most projectors only do a so-so job of rewinding since the required back tension is difficult to maintain. For best results you should rewind films by hand on a bench.

John

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on December 22, 2003, 08:38 PM:

Tony,
I've always thought that just a bit of tension on the (former) take up reel while bench rewinding should do the job. For those with the GS-1200, Leon Norris told me that since that model has a seperate rewind motor, there's no reason not to use the projector for rewinding. Still, I use the bench about 90% of the time.
By the way, am I the only one who thought Barry was joking?
Doug

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on December 23, 2003, 07:08 AM:

Toutchy lot eh?!
As a matter of interest I am a fully experienced film technician and have worked in the cinema business for thirty years or so and that is why my sarcastic reply was sent to a supposed 'expert' who clearly,through no fault of his own,is not.
If however offence has been taken then so be it,I cannot undo that but I will address the substance of the thread on rewinding film.
Be it 8,16,35 or even 70mm (and I have used them all),a very slight pressure against the rim of a GOOD reel-no nicks in it or whatever,and passed through the fingers held on the edges only,and exerting a slight tension will have your prints lasting forever,and giving a nice "Flange Bound" rewind as they used to say in the trade.
To address the running lines appearing.Par for the course I'm afraid with Super 8 unless your projector and its self-threading mechanismis properly adjusted and scrupulously clean.This mechanism is a breeding ground for the Grimy Gremlins so they must be deterred at all costs.!! [Eek!]

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on December 23, 2003, 08:28 AM:

Although this was intended as a joke, it is an interesting discussion. As a former projectionist in theaters, I find slight pressure from a rewind bench with an adjustable brake lever on the rewind unit (left hand side) works well. No need to touch the flange of the reel with fingers. The Neumade Giant (2000 ft) and the Neumade X-3 (6000 ft) capacity hand crank rewinds (capacities shown as 35mm format only) both have a nice hand brake lever. Common is to drill a hole through this lever and stick and adjustable bolt through the bench top and through the handle with a wing nut. However, you can actually do it from the back side of the brake spring tension assenbly indise the casting. So in all due respect, drilling through the handle is, not actually a wrong way, but there is a better way to do it. Fit these rewinds with the super 8 brass adapters and you're ready to go. Order them with the 16mm shaft (35mm is 5/16 inch) square shaft and you can handle both formats easily. Order them with the 35mm 5/16 shaft and you could do all four formats with no problem, providing you had access to the films. That would be super 8 with brass adapters, 16mm that fit on the 5/16 shafts by adding a spacer block to the finger switch; 35mm directly on the 5/16 shaft; and stepping up to 70MM with the adapter for that size available through Neumade.

Chip

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on December 23, 2003, 09:11 AM:

Though I am out of the Film Lab business, I use to have to clean,prep, and rewind thousands and thousands of feet of film daily. We did archival work as well so i worked with 16mm, 35mm, Optical, Magnetic, basically everything under the sun. I was taught by my mentor that the best way to rewind a film was to put slight tension on the left reel, not so much to create a tight wind but a nice "pack". If it was left a little loose, just like one poster claimed, you could literally pull the head or the tail of the film and start scratching the film! And I always used white gloves that we got from Christies. Ah, the good ole days. [Smile]

Now I just use the rewind function on the GS but I still put a little tension with my left hand. Force of habit I suppose.

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on December 23, 2003, 02:28 PM:

For 8mm I always use Elmo rewind arms and as appears common practice apply slight pressure to the spool. For 16mm I have Premier rewind arms but personally I think the Elf provides a very good rewind so tend to use it most of the time.
Seasons greetings to all Forum members.
Mal

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on December 23, 2003, 03:59 PM:

So much for my understanding of the British Humor (Humour) and that's with a family heritage that goes back to Nottingham!

Live and learn and BTW don't drink and rewind during the holidays.

John

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on December 23, 2003, 04:10 PM:

John,

I don't understand how you can be so flippant about such a serious topic?

Thousands of injuries were recorded in the 1970's as a consequence of people drinking and rewinding. This slowed to 100's in the 1980's and thankfully with the advent of DVD's we are now down to a handful. Nevertheless a few simple precautions would probably eliminate it altogether.

For example, if whilst rewinding you find yourself rewinding more than 2 reels at a time STOP. Take some water and lie down-wait till the room stops turning before re-starting.

If whilst cleaning and rewinding your drink takes on an altogether new taste, don't add more Ginger Ale! It is probably Filmrenew.

Should the film turn red whilst enagaged in splicing two sections together...go for the bandaids...and count your fingers-provided you can count at least 16 you are probably fine. Just put the bandaid on the 4 that seem to be bleeding.

Have a safe holiday! [Cool]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 23, 2003, 05:10 PM:

Barry, What your really knocking is the way the forum is set up so maybe you should take that up with Brad.
Shame you couldnt have said all that first time arround.
I have also been in the industry for 35 yrs and mainly working for a Film Manufacturer (Ilford Films)in R&D. I can remember being told that it was not good to have the film wound too tightly so as to allow the film to aclimatise more easily to its surroundings. Its also very easy to stress the film emulsion and film base which is then something that can not be rectified. I use my GS for rewinding and like others in this thread apply sligh pressure to the takeup spool duing reinding so that it is firly tight but not overly tight.
Loose rewinding can cause muck to get between the convolutions of film and then if for any reason the film gets pulled tight it will cause scratching. That can happen easily if for instance the film doesnt come off the take up reel at the end of the rewind.
Anyway lets hope everyone has a good and enjoyable Christmas and happy new year. Kev. [Smile]

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on December 24, 2003, 07:11 AM:

I rewind them slowly and press the film so it isn't tight all the way through the reel - So by the time it's done, it will be as loose and tight so constricted that sprockets may tear or worse - To coin a phrase; Slightly, Lightly and Politely - A Cool Yule to all - Shorty

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on December 25, 2003, 11:36 AM:

quote:
Brad- can you reset my counter to 0 so I don't get any more of this kind of comment please or should I re-register as a newbie?

No and no. This forum uses the identical software and configuration of www.film-tech.com and it would be a huge pain in the rear to go back and modify things on this one forum just because someone made a joke (didn't you notice the smiley face in his post?) or because someone is taking the status seriously. It's just a little humorous status thing. You can read how this forum software works over at the Film-Tech forums FAQ page. www.film-tech.com/ubb/faq.html

The second part of no is because any duplicate registrations causes much problems and my response to that would be a permanent ban from the forums. I just don't have the time to really watch the forum closely, and the reason why it is still available to everyone is because the members as a whole here have managed to self-moderate themselves and made this place a very friendly place for 8mm collectors and hobbyists to meet. Sadly, if this place started getting attacked by the kind of scum that was participating in the old 8mm forum set up by the 16mmfilms.com website, then the only realistic solution would be to shut it down, again because I just don't have the spare time to watch over it closely.

But still, hats off to everyone for making this such a polite place to chat. [Cool]

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on December 25, 2003, 02:59 PM:

A revealing reply Brad. The old forum closed just a few days after I joined so I wasn't aware of the problems you mentioned.
This being a minority hobby it is in our own interest to self- moderate this forum. We as collectors have too few chances to keep in touch and exchange information, especially in such a far-flung little 'community'. It would be a tragedy to lose the forum again. We are bound to have differences of opinion now and then but as long as it doesn't get personal that will keep the forum active and lively.
Mal (climbing down from soapbox)

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on December 25, 2003, 03:53 PM:

Mal,
I just wanted to let you know that the ex-forum Brad is refering to is not the previous version of this fine flock of film fellows. That went away due to a server crash. There was an older forum that as I understand it, got a bit nasty. But that was before my time.
Doug

p.s. Don't attempt to rewind while you're on that soapbox.

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on December 25, 2003, 04:50 PM:

Hi Doug

The last forum didnt get nasty. The last two topics if memory
serves me well were "Unsold copies of The Rose the sole cause
of Global Warming" and "Bette Midler Greatest Superstar of the Universe and Sex on legs What do you think!!"

After that computers crashed all over the world and there was darkness.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Handy tip for cleaning a film projector gate is:- (This came from a professional projectionist).

Take a metal wire brush and give the gate a good thorough rub. After finishing to remove dust hold projector upside down and shake. Any residue dust can then be removed by blowing at the projector.

Guaranteed to change your projector's performance!!! [Wink]

Grand Shitehawk
Betty Midler World Domination Society

I can write this crap as I am only a junior!!

Dear Tony [Frown]

(This is for you Tony other members please do not read) That means you O'Reilly

I hope you read the end of this email.

I was only kidding about the tip it will destroy your projector
so sorry [Frown]

PS

Will you please tell Ian to stop sending me copies of The Rose
in the post I know it is him as he doesnt put any stamps on.

The dog has ate so many copies it has bits of film coming out of its arse and the vet is asking questions again.

PPS

How is Stagecoach are you looking after it.

Mike

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on December 25, 2003, 06:25 PM:

Thanks for the info Doug. It does rather prove the point that this forum is important for passing on knowledge. I couldn't rewind and get off my soapbox at the same time even if I wanted to. It takes all three hands for me to get down.
Mal

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on December 26, 2003, 04:06 AM:

Oh dear Oh dear this is all out of control

I guess it is more difficult to be humorous with postings than it is face to face. Oh dear Oh dear.

Brad, I was of course joking about the resetting and or re-listing, sure am I not proud to be recognised as an expert? All my life (all 13 yrs of it) have I been seeking an opportunity to be an ex spurt. And now I am !!! Fan bloomin tastic. Sorry I need to put more smilies in place!!!

As for smily grins- cheesy in Barry's case- is that what they are meant to mean.....aahhhhhhhh....alll revealed [Big Grin]

Mike, I only read the first bit of you posting but no matter because I have one of Ian's lifetime projector guarantees so I am sure he won't mind me dropping it back. I do find that one of those green nylon pads are great for removing old film cleaner left on from the previous owner.

As for your dog, I have no option to contact the RSPCR (Royal society for provention of cruently to the rose). I don't even believe this film exists as I have never seen a copy. If Ian had as many as you claim why are my arms not sore from carrying them to my car each time I visit???

Stagecoach, Yee Haa, would you belive I have only watched 3/4 of it as yet! But it is stabled alongside some othe JW's. Just watched the King's comeback special with a serious Elvis fan- made it all the more special on s8.

Now, what Doug and others say are correct. This is a great forum with some very knoweldgeable people who have dedicated their lived to s8. Many of them (most?) are over retirement age (O'Reilly excepted) and heading for the great s8 in the sky so before you all shuffle off this mortal whatsit keep sharing that great knowledge to the idiots that are foolish enough to follow!

Happy New Year

[Cool]

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on December 26, 2003, 05:09 AM:

Hi Tony

Just remembered we dont own a dog. Oops!!

Isn't it funny how film collectors buy movies but never watch them. I remember a fellow collector now in cine heaven
who used to buy virtually every title that Derann released but if you quizzed him about what a title was like he would have to go and look at it.

Quite often he would have titles including features that he hadn't watched in over a year from purchase.

We he finally departed this earth and his wife sold his collection there were rows of cartoons still sealed or slit at the top were he had taken the film out and watched first 20ft then rewound and put back in the box.

This is proberably striking a chord with a number of collectors out there. If it doesnt it will!!

Buying your first duplicate by mistake is fun. If you want to enjoy this experience stack films you buy in no particular order preferably three deep.

This is usually caused by a avalanche of boxes trying to land on your head two or three weeks earlier. Schneider reels and cans are particular lethal. Dracula nearly got me one night and Schneider cans dont bounce very well.

Rules of Cine Happiness are

Dont buy on impulse!

Buy to watch not to collect!

Repeatability doesn't mean you show it once every 10 years!

Be specific don't buy every genre of film to have an
audience. They wont come anyway!

Just because Jimmy Smith has a certain title doesnt mean you
have to have it.

Long Life and Happiness.

Happy New Year to All

Thanks for the plug mate white fiver in the post.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2