This is topic No Interest In My MINT "Bonnie Scotland" On E-Bay in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 11, 2006, 03:43 PM:
I am very surprised that there is zero interest in my mint feature of "Bonnie Scotland" on e-bay in Super Eight. These were limited edition prints and I paid $300.00 for it used in 1989 along with "Fra Diavolo" but yet not one bid. Reasonable reserve. Also offering Buy it Now too!!!
Any thoughts?
Thank's! Tom
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on March 11, 2006, 04:42 PM:
Bad timing, I suppose?
What are the chances of a person just happening to be a dedicated film collector, having computer experience and an eBay account, AND be looking for a copy of Bonnie Scotland at the precise time your listing is up on eBay?
Think about it..... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on March 11, 2006, 06:23 PM:
I see a 16mm print listed, but not Super 8. Also checked completed items. I check regularly for L&H, never saw your listing.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 11, 2006, 09:00 PM:
Tom,
Try giving it another go.
Jan's comments hold a lot of merit.
The sale is also important on how well
you perform the following:
1. List the item.
2. are able to present the sale in the
plot and story of the title.
3.describing the merits of the film print if people have
questions.
Michael
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 11, 2006, 09:13 PM:
Hi Mike:
Did you find my listing?
Here Is The Auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewItem&item=9112271788&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on March 12, 2006, 10:12 AM:
I found it through a regular search (for "Bonnie Scotland") no problem. 169 results, I clicked on "DVDs & Movies," then on "Film" and there they were - two results, one 16mm and one super-8. So, no problem there.
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 12, 2006, 10:43 AM:
Tom
What is the cost of international postage say to the UK. Often not knowing what this will be can be off putting. If you can provide a price and by the cheapest means it can widen your audience
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 12, 2006, 11:35 AM:
Hi Tony:
I would think it would go surface mail for $20.00. I would be very fair about this.
Sincerely, Tom
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 12, 2006, 10:14 PM:
Print now relisted on e-bay with no reserve.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 12, 2006, 11:48 PM:
Tom,
Here is my opinion:
1.) I could not find this title, without your link on the 8mm Forum.
Remember the adage in selling a home: Location, Location, Location.
2.) After searching under 8mm Laurel, - 29 items came up to list.
I did not see the print of Bonnie Scotland there. Which tells me,
that you are not listing it correctly to get full exposure and advantage
of prospective sales.
3.) Listing it as: 'L&H' is obscure at best. - Not many people refer to them as
'L&H', or would think of searching under 'L&H.' If it was listed as 8mm
Laurel and with with possibe phrasing of
'Hardy' in the listing, it would reach a broader audience.
4.) The description turned me off. I do not wish to read a book, I wish to
become convinced on how hilarious the film is. In short, you spelled out
how long it may seem from the thick plot. If you do not think that
Bonnie Scotland is hilarious, (and from your description it's not funny) then
the buyer is not going to hop on to the sale.
This film is Hilarious, and you need to convey that in the description.
If you tell me that there are two funny scenes, that is not going to get
anyone to purchase a film at your hopeful cost.
You also need to convey somehow in the description, that the print is of
the finest quality, and it is unmatched by the high quality standards that
had been set by the famous Blackhawk Films Company. The film is
complete with roaring MGM Lion in the pre title sequence with a wonderful
score as the titles unfold on the screen. And who cannot not chuckle in
seeing the famous bowler derby hats at the beginning and end of the film,
is a treat that completes the film as a full length feature.
I find that this is important to me. I own this Super 8mm feature, and
have watched it, and I can vouch for the contents in my print.
5.) It is important to mention the sharp quality which rivals the best in Super 8
sound, and equaled to the finest in 16mm.
6.) I do not understand what is meant by: Mint to near Mint in the description.
This is something that you will need to defend if people ask questions.
7.) Have you watched this particular film recently? Do you have an 8mm
Projector to view it on? I know when I enquired about the Mary Poppins
print, you seemed to have a vague idea, how it appeared on the screen.
But that is neither here or there, you sold it. That's in the past, and it is not
important now. What is important is that you know your onions, and are
prepared to sell, sell, sell.
Michael
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 13, 2006, 10:33 AM:
Hi Mike:
You mentioned all those positive things about my film listing. Is there anything in particular you don't like about it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Best, Tom
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 13, 2006, 07:02 PM:
Tom,
You seemed concerned that the listing did not receive the action that you had hoped for.
It is my wish that you will be able to obtain from the film sale, all that you desire. But they are only my thoughts on how you may get more sales.
Sorry that I placed my ideas all in list form- I guess that seemed picky.
- Only trying to help. -
Check out Thornhill Entertainments film descriptions. Those descriptions are hard to beat. He has a solid reputation and sells high. Even his Super 8mm sold extremely high.
Lately there has been some criticism regarding Bonnie Scotland being a title which is inferior to the boys other films. If some people read that column, and agree with it-
then now is the time to dispell all notions of Bonnie Scotland being a film that only has two funny moments. - It seems that the description relflected that to me. No offense, I was only trying to assist.
Many people need to watch Stan & Babe, with a group of people. The films are timed in that fashion. Stan went to great lenghts to cut the films to how the audience would react to them.
But back to the description. It's not bad, it's not awful.
By playing the devils advocate, doesnot indicate that your forum friends are from hell.
But live and learn is what I say.
I know that I just did.
Michael
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 13, 2006, 10:50 PM:
I know Mike. You just like to pick on me. No just joking with you. I refuse to sell my print of "Fra Diavolo" because I just can't part with it. I did pay $300.00 each for these two films. My friend Scott Allen Nollen used these films to study for his book about Stan and Ollie for McFarland. Probably paying $300.00 each for these being used prints was too much. I do know that "Bonnie Scotland" is not reveired like other Hal Roach films. I can't spell reveired. Anyway, it still is a good film just the same. Not like "Way Out West" but... I know that Stan really despised the way their films were cut for television. The timing of their comedy was essential to the jokes working. I am doing more with 16mm now. Are you the same Mike that knew Art Stephan? I miss him a lot. Wish I could have gotten some of his film equipment like his rewinds and splicers.
Sincerely, Tom
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 14, 2006, 12:50 AM:
Tom,
I am the one 'Mike' in - the - same that knew Art.
I miss him too.
Ironic how you only lived miles from him at the time.
And it was Richard Harris -
(Good 'ole King Arthur, and Albus Dumbledore) the actor, that corrected me
by calling me 'Michael' instead of 'Mike'
Best Wishes,
Michael
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 15, 2006, 08:20 AM:
Sorry to intercede, I hadn't heard that Art passed away - We were in touch a long time, I bought several films from him and he did speak of his treatments that he was going through - Sad to learn these things - Mike, will you be at Syracuse? - Shorty
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 15, 2006, 09:54 AM:
Hi Shorty:
Yes, November 2003 probably is the saddest month of my life. Lost my best film friend Art Stephan the first week of November. Then my Mom passed away the third week of this month. A very difficult time to go through.
Sincerely, Tom
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 15, 2006, 03:35 PM:
I am truly sorry, as March 3rd was the twentieth anniversary of my Mom's passing from Lupus, though everyday I feel her loss - I understand - Art was a good friend and I have an article that was written about him somewhere, will find it, copy and mail to to you when I can - It was from a few years back - Bought some nice shorts from him - He wondered why I wanted "scored" silents and I explained the dimension of watchability when listening to a good music-effects track - Nice man, I'll miss him much - Shorty
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 16, 2006, 04:46 PM:
Hearing how much your print originally cost you, (300.00) just makes me that much more thankful for the deals I have recieved for the Laurel and Hardy features that I have collected, (never having paid more than 50.00 for any of them)
The sad truth is that, with rare exceptions, we will rarely get what we paid originally for a super 8 print, unless we recieved the film at an incredible steal.
Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on March 16, 2006, 05:29 PM:
I assume most of those were common Blackhawks. BONNIE is neither common nor a Blackhawk. Will it sell for $300, probably not. I would guess around $200. But you never know.
Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on March 18, 2006, 01:04 PM:
I suspect you would have been luckier a few months ago before it became known that this film is due on DVD very shortly.
Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on March 26, 2006, 04:26 PM:
The film closed at $127.00 on e-bay. Not too good of a price considering I paid $300.00. But almost half is better than nothing. This format will continue to die. I am sorry to say this.
--TP
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 27, 2006, 12:22 AM:
Tom,
Sorry to hear that it did not go
the way that you had planned.
Agreeably it is not what anyone would hope
to receive after investing $300.00 for a
title of this caliber and beautiful quality.
But it is only a matter of luck and
timing on how eBay sales reach record highs.
Will the format die? Only if collectors wish for it to die.
At least I know that it will always live on in my heart.
That is the romance of film; especially this specific
small gauge format, and film collecting.
8 mm is a neat compact format. I compare it to books,
because it's easy to store, they can fit neatly
under your arm, and the box artwork is at times memorable.
The quality of features, shorts, and trailers
in today's age is definitely unsurpassed in quality.
Today's collectors realize the potential in this small gauge,
and they demand it, expect it, and receive it.
Undoubtedly, they / we pay a premium for
the services, and for the product that we receive.
It may not always be perfect, but for most of the time,
this gauge brings great satisfaction to the collector.
Collectors are always looking to upgrade
and pursue titles that they suddenly realize
are worthy of obtaining and keeping in a collection.
Some people have gone to great lengths
to acquire complete collections,
only to find somewhere down the road,
that they wish to liquidate the library, for some positive
reason during that moment in their lives.
These collectors sometimes find themselves
thinking of that special title, which they had once owned,
and then begin to find the need to hunt for it again.
A few months ago, I accompanied my brother-in-law
and his friend to a model train collectors show, where
they were selling some of their 'O' gauge trains.
During the day, they did not sell one train.
However, his friend sold an old toy Erector Set,
which was made by the Gilbert Company here in the USA.
Why you may ask?
Because some gentleman remembered how
wonderful it was, when he once owned this
toy as a child.
I guess collecting is not only the romance,
but it is also the hunt for that special elusive item.
It's the 'toy,' that keeps us going.
Keep your chin up, it will get better.
As in the Maltese Falcon: It's the stuff that dreams are made of.
Michael
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on March 27, 2006, 09:07 AM:
Michael, what a beautiful post. Well written and to the point.
All I can add here is that it really isn't about the money, i.e. the monetary value of a film (to you or to the general public). That's just the thing about eBay... you win some, you lose some. Look at it this way: as long as you owned the movie, at least you got $173 worth of use out of it. Even if you just watched it once or twice, then that's one or two expensive screenings, but - who can ever take that from you? The special memory of watching a film on the big screen from real film, not a VHS tape or DVD? And when it comes down to it, isn't that worth more than any $$?
OK, maybe not necessarily, but it helps rationalize the loss.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 27, 2006, 06:39 PM:
Jan,
Thank you, and I appreciate your comments and support.
Indeed, collecting 8 mm has never has been
about the money. Think about the cost of features
now, and the cost of features thirty years ago.
If anyone has a copy of a Blackhawk Bulletin
from the '70's, do they think that they would
be able to afford the prices of those new prints
back in the seventies?
For some of us, and I for one was not able to afford
Bonnie Scotland when it was initially released
in Super 8 mm.
So, I'm glad that the film will find a good home,
and that someone will appreciate watching it on
a big screen. Tom should feel the same way too.
Jan, as you mentioned, it's the format and watching
film on a big screen. That is the fascination
and enjoyment to film collecting.
On another note, finding a
16 mm complete version
of Bonnie Scotland in excellent condition,
is practically impossible.
There are 16 mm reductions of Bonnie Scotland
floating around, and they do not include
the opening MGM Roaring Lion with the complete titles.
Many of these 16 mm prints also have printed-in TV
cue marks within the body of the film,
and at the end of the print.
If a collector cannot find a complete
reduction, or one of the rarer MGM Lab Prints,
that were made for film rental libraries,
then last alternative is to assemble the
cut-down versions that were made for
Television.
The titles are:
1.)All Wet
2.)In a Mess
3.)The Rookies
4.)Bang, Bang
Assembling these editions, would still
not guarantee a complete version
of this feature film.
If you only appreciate some segments,
then you could also hunt for a 16 mm
print of Robert Youngston's -
MGM's Big Parade of Laughs.
The Youngston footage is good,
but it is filled with sound effects,
and narration.
Also for those nay sayers, that complain about the
romantic subplot, those episodic scenes only last for about
two minutes at length.
Ken Films had the most complete version
of Bonnie Scotland in Super 8 mm.
It is by far, the most accessible version available to those
collectors that are completists to this series,
and that enjoy and collect film.
It easily fits on two 800 foot reels.
Michael
Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on March 27, 2006, 06:40 PM:
I am very suprised it went for that low a price. I was considering bidding but the timing wasn't right for me money-wise. I paid about $200 for FRA DIAVOLO almost 10 years ago.
I was paying about $125 per Blackhawk L&H feature in the mid-90's from places like Dave Thomas Films and private collectors (Big reel ads, David Osbourne ads, etc.) Now I see these going on eBay for $50 - $75. But BONNIE SCOTLAND is very rare...that puzzles me.
Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on March 27, 2006, 07:12 PM:
Dying? I don't think so. Your auction may have died according to your expectations, but that's the nature of auctions. I sell full time on eBay and have multiple copies of the same titles. Sometimes a title will go for opening bid price or not sell at all, then at other times it may sell for 10 to 15 times more than the opeoning bid price.
Next time set your reserve at what you want for your film and run it through several times. If it doesn't sell, wait and list it on down the line.
Michael, great post!
P.S. Super 8 is alive and well here.
Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 27, 2006, 11:14 PM:
Michael,
Having just read your posting I would like to add my support for what you said and the way in which you expressed it. I wish I could have been as eloquent when I responded on the forum run by Mark Sylvester where it is common sport to attack and ridicule the collectors of film over DVD.
I don't think anyone should be collecting film if they are concerned about the loss of money but I sympathise that you lost so much on this film. I don't know Bonnie Scotland and I would have little idea as to how rare these are to find. I would have bid for the film if I had not been somewhat put off by the various critical ratings that are kicking around.
But you and others do raise an interesting point about the quality and completeness of films issued by various parties. Perhaps this is one for the print review area but as a still relatively novice collector I would really appreciate a comparison of prints in this way so I know what to look for and what to avoid.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 27, 2006, 11:50 PM:
Tony,
Thank you for your very welcome support
to my comments regarding this thread which
was begun by Tom Pennock.
Just to clear up the issue, Tom was selling
and hoping to achieve a fair return
on the full length Bonnie Scotland feature
which he had initially paid $300.00 US.
Indeed it is unfortunate, especially when
one has had their heart set on what
should be considered a fair or equal
return for such a unique print.
I define it as unique, because it was issued
in Super 8 sound, during a time when
most collectors viewed the format in
direct competition with the emerging
Video tape packaged movies years ago.
Bonnie Scotland is also unique, because
this title was not offered by Blackhawk Films
in the USA, or by any of the outfits located
in Europe.
When both this and The Devils Brother (Fra Diavolo)
was released, it was not only an opportunity to purchase
these prints, but also a treat to see them for
the very first time. These two titles were lost
to a generation of Laurel and Hardy Buffs,
that had probably seen most if not all of their
work, and when these were released, it was
the icing on the cake. Even more fortuitous,
the print quality was superb for Super 8mm at
the time.
As Mary Poppins would say: It was practically perfect.
Anyway, I encouraged Tom, to give the review
another go, and try to emphasize the positive
points of this feature.
How we help one another, and pursue the
time to write on the forum, is a direct correlation
to the good health to this fun format.
I marvel at how everyone has a specialty
in 8mm, and it is all worthy to share.
Super 8 is great, and we need to promote it.
If a title is not understood for any reason,
it is with the hope that someone will have the
time and fortitude to express the positive
merits in the hobby.
When I read that collectors are joyful
with color prints that have turned
to varying degrees of color fade,
and still find the value in a faded
print over a video or DVD,
then once again it proves the value
in this small gauge. Is very pleasing
and extremely worthwhile.
Michael
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 28, 2006, 05:06 PM:
Micheal, certianly the poet of the 8mm forum.
Actually, considering how much most Laurel and Hardy features go for these days on ebay, (I've never paid more than 50.00 american) 125.00 dollars is pretty good.
I think Bonnie scotland is more of a preferred taste for L & H fans, which is why it wouldn't go for as much.
But hey, 125.00 isn't THAT BAD of a return for a used print of this, regadless of what a person paid for them originally.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 28, 2006, 10:16 PM:
Osi,
quote:
125.00 isn't THAT BAD of a return for a used print.
I think Bonnie scotland is more of a preferred taste for L & H fans, which is why it wouldn't go for as much.
125.00 is not bad for a used print, and it is a steal for a print as Bonnie Scotland.
Indeed to many film collectors, The Sons of the Desert and Way Out West are considered to be the features that are desired to own in a film library.
Opposite to being familiar with the Hal Roach- Film Classic TV package release prints.
I had never seen a complete print of Bonnie Scotland over the airwaves.
But I do remember, that to own a film as special as Bonnie Scotland and The Devils Brother, was always the special elusive title that many of us desired. Before these titles were released for the home market, I recall traveling to the Museum of Modern Art in NYC, for a special 35 mm screening of The Devils Brother.
Needless to say, it was a delight. Watching the boys in their original element
was a joy to behold.
Four years ago, The Charter group; The New York Sons of the Desert, hosted a special 35 mm screening at the Lowes Jersey in Journal Square. The Lowes, is a wonderful movie palace from 1929 that is supported by private contributions. At this screening there was a Warner Brothers Tweety cartoon, the trailer for the Rouge Song, a comedic short of Laurel and Hardy in NYC taken around 1932, Hog Wild, Charlie Chase in the short 'Four Parts' and Laurel and Hardy in Way Out West.
There were about 400 people in the audience. Many of these 'Uncollectors' (people off the street that don't collect film, roared with delight and buried much of the succeeding dialog with laughter.
I had never experienced this unbridled energy at a public screening. This proves that as collectors, we have lost the value of film and have not experienced The Boys in a venue that they were meant to be enjoyed. The laughter was infectious.
Is Bonnie Scotland a preferred taste? -Maybe. However we have become critical of film. Either because we have traded it off to compare with cost and the value of a DVD, or the lack of library space in our rooms, homes, and lofts.
Notice that I defined our collections as a 'Library,' because I can safely bet that we own more film than the average collector. Film illustrates our taste for a medium that is superior to Television. Thus we dictate when to take out and run a spool / reel of film. Instead of the Television dictating to us, we decide when a program must begin and end.
Think for a moment on how often we are disturbed when the film does not follow the path correctly, or the bulb blows out mid way through a program. It's a pity, and it throws off our engaged spirit of the program. We are engaged as we look up with a starry eyed gaze at the screen, and surrender ourselves reel by reel as the pictures float through the air.
Michael
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on March 30, 2006, 01:28 AM:
Michael,
... Who knew you had such a way with words? I'm awestruck. Wow.
Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on April 11, 2006, 08:10 PM:
I watched my VHS of BONNIE over the weekend. Then I turned on TCM last night and it was on the air! Hadn't watched this one in a while. Here are some fresh observations:
It really is 2 films -- not just because of the obvious break between the Scotland/civilian scenes and the India/army scenes. The Scotland scenes are slowly paced, badly edited, badly directed, and badly acted. (I say this as a HUGE fan of the boys, so don't shoot me.) Once the locale shifts to India, the picture picks up pace and the Boys are back in form. Only dull spots in the second half are when they aren't on screen -- the first half is dull even when they are on screen.
First Half:
Reading of the will scene is awkward. Jokes about Stan's father killing himself are depressing and unfunny. Ollie falls over his bags for no reason (no setup, no anticipation, he just falls -- and in front of a crowd -- embarrassing, not funny). They have a conversation about being in jail -- unfunny, child viewers will think they are bad guys.) The scene with Ollie sneezing all the water out of the pond is ridiculous and probably only funny to a 7 year old. The fish cooking scene is as slow-paced as one of their earliest talkies (e.g. THEY GO BOOM.) The lack of music during these scenes is deafening! The segue into the second half is the Boys mistaking an army recruitment place for a tailor. Hilarious.
Second Half:
The Boys play finger games; play with their hats; have a dancing scene; have run-ins with Finlayson; cause their entire regiment to be out-of-step when marching; the "mirage scene." There is some background music to these scenes. The pacing is great, the Boys deliver their lines comfortably and in-character. Everything "clicks." Only bad part if the very end with the bees, and Stan almost killing himself.
According to the Skredtvedt book, most of this movie was filmed before THICKER THAN WATER. Additional filming and retakes were done after that film. I think this was after the first cut was previewed and they realized the Boys played second-fiddle to the "Alan" character. My personal opinion is that the fish-cooking scene was filmed at this point, rather hurriedly to get the picture out into release. The lack of a music score during this scene supports my "in a rush" theory.
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on April 16, 2006, 12:59 AM:
Tony,
This is a very good analysis. As buffs, we all can become critical / analytical in what makes a film work.
Granted, Bonnie Scotland may not be considered to be their best work. However, lets also look at the Bohemian Girl. That feature had its problems with casting and script, but to this very day I still find both of these features enjoyable.
I consider, the features that the boys made during the post Hal Roach period are more of their lesser effort. This does not indicate that they placed less effort into their films, because I still watch these features that were made post 1940.
Hence, the same holds true for some of the Roach features that were made and which we hold debate over time and again. Stan and Babe were masters of their craft. Hal Roach and the bookkeeper had their own egos and ideas that were notorious in making the boys miserable post 1934.
Stan was aware of this, and the reason that any feature made by his production company, had desirable results.
Interestingly, while on tour in the USA and Europe during the late 1940's and into the early 50's, Stan was aware that they had not made a picture since the 30's and their acclaim followed them years after their best work at Roach.
Official Biographer, the late John McCabe attested to this. While he was studying Shakespeare in the UK, he flipped a coin whereas to take a chance to sneak by and hope to visit the boys back stage, or to move on and live by a fleeting memory. The result was years beyond Babes passing, and the formation of the Sons of the Desert in 1965. The Sons was then, and is still now a place to gather and enjoy the films of Stan and Babe. Not by one person, but by a group. It's a gathering that allows us to debate and laugh about this great team forty years since its formation, and almost eighty years after they became a team.
Michael
Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on April 16, 2006, 06:46 PM:
Michael writes:
quote:
This is a very good analysis.
Thanks. I tried to give it a certain half-arsed dignity.
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