8mm Forum: Columbia prints...[problem]

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 05, 2006, 03:58 AM:

I have cheked that all my Columbia digest that come in generic yellow cardbox are turning red. Does anybody here have different experience. Please mention which title is that.

However, another from Columbia release but in a different cover style (the one with artworks) is still holding the color well, .i.e Confessions of a Driving Instructor. Part 1 (Part 2 was released by Warner Bross and warmth). Any other titles that are having good color like this.

Cheers,

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on May 05, 2006, 07:20 AM:

I had a 200ft. Columbia sound/color digest of 7TH VOYAGE OF SINBAD for the longest time (one of four parts they released)... Long enough to literally watch it go pink. No joy there. I actually threw it away because it was in poor condition, plus I'd just gotten the full feature on super-8. [Eek!]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on May 05, 2006, 10:29 AM:

Winbert,

None of my Columbia color prints came in the genric box. "Mysterious Island" has slight fade, "Sinbad & The Eye of the Tiger" looks great, "Taxi Driver" (same design as Warners but with the Columbia logo) still looks good, and strangely enough I have a color/sound 4 part "Jason and the Argonauts" that has held it's color extremely well. On the other hand, "The New Centurions" has gone totally magenta.

Doug

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on May 05, 2006, 10:44 AM:

my 600ft version of jason and the argonuts is now SUNBURN red.that version does date back to 1973.andy.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on May 05, 2006, 11:29 AM:

Just pulled out my old Mysterious Island to show my five year old daughter. ( She saw a movie on TV about Capt. Nemo)... I had not screened it in probably 20 years..and was surprised to see that it looked almost the same as it did when I bought it new so many years ago. Now I think I'll pull out The Jolson Story and Jolson Sings Again to see how they've weathered the years.

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on May 05, 2006, 11:36 AM:

my jolson story has seen better days.andy.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on May 06, 2006, 06:07 AM:

Winburt- Are you refering to those "Columbia Anniversary" boxes that came out in the 70's? If so, I have a few digests, but they are black and white films, so still good-as-new. I checked my Columbia release of a Flintstones episode, which has just a little redness. My Columbia digest of "Tommy" was released in a clam shell box and still has perfect colors.

[Eek!]

Opps- I think this topic should probably be under the regular forum section, and probably not under "Reviews" [Eek!]

.

Nick.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on May 06, 2006, 10:05 AM:

Nick,

I was thinking the very same thing. Let's keep the review section for specific titles. Topic moved!

Doug

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 07, 2006, 11:47 AM:

Nick,

Yes, I was refering to those "Columbia Anniversary" boxes.

So...pity that I have around 12s, none of them are holding the color.

I posted this to know if they were like that since they were released. This is based on the information on each its back cover saying that the films were taken from old negatives and consumers were asked to understand it. So were they reddish since the first time?

Second question, I found two same title ("Silencers") and perhaps others, in two box version, one was with artworks and the other one in Anniversary box. Are they same cut?

BTW my Jolson Story was also holding color well.

cheers

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on May 09, 2006, 06:49 PM:

about Columbia digests...I recently bought a 200'(general term [Wink]

) b&w super8mm sound digest of a British(?)release, and was very surprised that it was approximately two minutes shorter than the version of the same title released here in the U.S. I checked to make sure nothing was cut out and there were no splices. The film is the 1950s sci-fi riot THE GIANT CLAW. Must have been a cost cutting measure, as I don't see any reason for editing the content. As for the original topic; I only had one color title in the generic box, THE GORGON, which turned very RED.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on May 12, 2006, 08:58 PM:

This post got me dragging out my Columbia digests.....

I have just watched the Jolson Story 400ft and it is fading, it still has some blue and green but has a brown tinit to most of it. This like most of my other Columbia digests is in the generic yellow Columbia box.

I also have some Columbia boxes featuring artwork like the Silencers. I have this in both 200 and 400 and both have artwork boxes.

I will check some of the other Columbia 400ft digests for fade like Jolson Sings Again, Bridge On The River Kawi, Lawrence Of Arabia etc

From my memory they were amongst the first widely available 400ft digest releases and date from the mid 1970's or earlier. The Eastman stock used at this time was very poor for holding colour.

In the early 1980's at the theatre I worked at we often had re-issues of films from the mid 1970's, they were often faded by that time even! Jaws, by 1982, had lost all of its blue and looked grey. Yet I recall American Graffiti at the same time was still good. The same patterns occur in Super 8.

Time to buy a spare fridge and throw all the colour film in it!

David

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 14, 2006, 10:12 PM:

So, can I say that those Columbia in Anniversary boxes had faded since the first time?

This is due to my aim to replace with good prints some of the titles which I really enjoy. If it is confirmed that they were released fading, then, I will stop my efforts.

Another issue is that my "Jolson Story" which is in artworks box has a good color, but as David's is fading. So, what is here? How about the "Lawrence of Arabia" which was also released in two boxes?

Do you think that Columbia relesed certain titles in two version of quality?

Funny thing that the anniversary boxes which was intended for highly collectable titles also provided "Queen of Boxer" a martial arts films which didn't even sell in the market.

So my thesis is that the warning behind the generic box which says "...from old negatives" was another excuse against their low quality.

your opinions pelase?

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on June 01, 2006, 10:10 AM:

Just viewed my Jolson Sings Again in the generic box and it has faded more than the Jolson Story with all blues and greens gone.

I'm scared to view my River Kwai.........but fade will probably be hard to detect in my Lawrence Of Arabia due to all the desert scenes!

I can recall a full page ad in one of the daily newspapers here in Melbourne around 1979, a department store advertising all the 400ft Columbia digests. The department store was Waltons (no connection to the English film company) and every store had a large Super 8 section. In addition to Columbia, they also sold IE International films from Italy, but all in English. Ths colour on these is still good.

David

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 01, 2006, 12:09 PM:

Winbert,
The fade problem is due to the film stock they were printed on. Anything printed before 1982 on Eastman/Kodak stock will fade.
In 1982 Kodak/Eastman launched LPP (Low Fade Print Positive) stock which is low fade and will not be showing these effects.
Agfa and Fuji film stocks dont seem to suffer from the same fade problems that Eastman prior to 1982 did. The Eastman stock prior to 1982 tended to be edge signed Eastman SP. All the Kodak/Eastman print stocks on polyester will be the LPP stock and again wont fade .
So the only way to be fairly certain of the fade prior to buying is to look at the edge signing and see what stock it was printed on.
To sum up:

Eastman SP....leave well alone
Eastman/Kodak LPP....OK
All Polyester Stocks....OK
Agfa....OK
Fuji....OK

So for those prints you are looking for it will depend on when they were printed and what stock etc.

We have many Disney prints here in the UK printed by Buck labs during the 70s and they still look great today but they were printed on Fuji Acetate stock. During the same period the US prints were printed on Kodak/Eastman SP stock and are fading very nicely. Later runs (82+) were on the LPP stock and some Agfa. These are of course OK still.
Now some of the titles you are talking about where the lab did some more runs during the 80's, are probably on Low Fade Stock regardless of film type. The earlier prints prior to 82 could be on the fading SP stock. You really have to ask the seller or dealer the question...WHAT STOCK IS IT ON?

Virtually all super 8 stock is edge signed on the sprocket hole side. You may need a magnifying glass to read it.

Sorry to ramble, Kev.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 04, 2006, 12:07 PM:

Winbert,

In the mid 70's, when Columbia made the decision to release a staggering amount of films in 400' versions, they also made the decision to reach as far back into their library as 1928. So along with "The Deep", "Close Encounters" and "Tommy", out came the comedies of Wheeler and Woolsey, Charlie Chase, Andy Clyde, and Frank Capra's silent "Submarine".
Not all of these old negatives were in pristine condition, hence the cautionary note on the film's box: "This print is intended for film buffs who will understand that it is made from old negative material and must necessarily contain small, technical imperfections. It will give you great pleasure if you love old classics and don't mind an occasional negative scratch."
I don't believe this was an excuse for low quality. Many of the Columbia B&W's look terrific and their color films seem to fade no differently then Ken or Castle releases.
I wonder if Columbia mentioned this on the box because they felt 8mm audiences were used to Castle Films' high level of quality. To be fair, Castle had been around for so long that the negatives they used from Universal were fairly fresh!

Doug

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on June 04, 2006, 06:27 PM:

Hi Kevin,

I have other experiences.

I have seen a lot of prints made on Kodak/Eastman in the mid of the 70s which colors still stunning.
And also a lot of prints made on Fuji in the Buck labs which colors and picture quality are really bad, for example the Samuel Bronston 4-parters "El Cid", "Roman Empire", "55 Days at Peking", "Circus World", and their trailers.

I think the reason that prints turning red are not only the stock they made on. The prints from UFA are made in different
european labs. In France, UK, Italy and Germany. It seems that UFA asked for the cheapest prices in different labs when they made a new release and the labs got only the order when they undercutted the competititors. This, perhaps, could have had an influence to the time of processing the films. And the fast processing of these "hurry hurry prints" results now in fading.

I know also the stunning UK-Disney prints from Buck, but also italian Warner Cartoons on Eastman with still fresh colors.

What do you think, Kevin?

Which lab is behind the leader which shows
"magnetic sound track 24 fr/sec" ????
Sometimes also in french, is it "Eclair" near Paris???
Does anybody know?

Andreas

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on June 04, 2006, 07:10 PM:

Andreas, I have Italian Warner cartoons from Techno Film that are faded. It is only a matter of time before all Eastman stock fades. Certainly lab work can be a contributing factor, but the storage environment is more critical.

Here in Melbourne, Australia where temperatures range from 2 degrees celcius to 42 degrees in 3 months, it is a challenge keeping film in a cool stable environment. Having said that I still have many 1970's Eastman prints on many formats where the colour is excellent.

Back to Columbia, I found their releases to be excellent quality. Their negs were generally superior to Ken and I always found them to be steady with little jitter or weave. It makes it all the more frustrating to have these beautiful prints fade!

As Doug says, the Columbia B & W's are good too. I did not know Submarine was released on Super 8. Harry Cohn would have been proud that audiences decades later can see this film, he was very smart with steering Columbia from poverty row to a major and Submarine helped him start the ball rolling. When he died in 1958, Columbia was the only major studio never to have suffered a loss.

David

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on June 05, 2006, 01:49 AM:

I share Andreas' view regarding "not only to blame the stock" (but) Lab works are also contributing. I had posted several shots here from my Eastman prints which still have stunning color

Doug,
My suspicion for cautionary note was an excuse for low quality due to some of the Columbia's collection were not (really) collectable, such as Queen Boxer , a fail martial art movie, even in the martial arts' scene.

cheers,

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on June 05, 2006, 02:51 AM:

David, I have also Warner Cartoons from Techno with bad colors, but these prints are made on prestriped Eastman stock.

All my german technofilms printed on silent Eastman stock and striped after processing have still good colors. These 45 m (200 ft) cartoons were available only till 79/80. Later UFA distributed only double and triple reels. These 80m and 120m reels shows the same color results if they printed on silent or prestriped filmstock.

The following picture shows a scan of all parts of Sandokan available in Germany. The color is better as the scan shows.
Also my other parts of Sandokan not available in Germany shows
the same fantastic colors. All parts are printed in Italy on Eastman filmstock in 1978/79.

About Columbia: some Columbia releases were also distributed by UFA or Piccolo Film Germany, these dubbed US-prints came from the same lab as the Ken Films they distributed. But it seems
that Columbia used better negatives.

Don´t know if the 3-parter "Rebell without a Cause" was available in US or UK too, but these US-prints on typical blue reels shows a german industry standard leader and part 2 and 3 shows no titles. Only a Columbia-Logo. I think the negatives have been made in Germany.

cheers

Andreas

[ June 05, 2006, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Andreas Eggeling ]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 05, 2006, 11:13 AM:

Most of my Columbia 400ft. prints are okay. Thankfully, my print of "Close Encounters, has little or no fade whatsoever, which is good, because it's probably the only way I'LL ever see it on super 8 (sob, boo hoo)

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 05, 2006, 01:10 PM:

You can always come over and watch my print, Osi. Or we can both go to Kevin's place!

Doug

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 05, 2006, 01:19 PM:

I know...we'll watch one third at my place, get on a plane, watch another third at Kevin's, and then screen the remaining third with Ricky Daniels!

Doug

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on June 05, 2006, 11:21 PM:

Osi,
What I knew "Close Encounters" is in artworks box (both cardboard and clamshell cases). I have mentioned above that Columbia's artworks box some are good (mine are Confessions of a Driving Instructor and Jolson Story).

I was trying to evaluate that those yellow generic boxes were (actually) made in low lab works quality (as Andreas' thesis for some UFAs)

So, can you confirm that all your good Columbia prints are those in yellow generic box?.

Allow me to upload the generic box photo for common understanding.

cheers,

[ June 06, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 06, 2006, 03:35 AM:

Winbert, these were the really early boxes (if I'm not mistaken) before the more colourful boxes and clamshell cases. I would think any colour films in those yellow boxes will have now started to fade if on Eastman stock? Even some of the newer artwork boxes are well on the fade. [Frown]

I had a copy of Close Encounters in a clamshell case and that had beautiful colour and was on poly stock. [Smile]

Sold it a while ago though.

Kev. [Smile]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 06, 2006, 10:41 AM:

Winbert,

I have come across different quality prints in both types of boxes. I recently purchased "The Professionals", "Tommy", and a second copy of "Taxi Driver"(to edit into the Piccolo version) in the clamshells and they are as faded as their generic boxed brethren.

Doug

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 06, 2006, 11:51 AM:

Winbert, i have two parts of the country and western music spectacular and both are fine, however, we had Guns of Navarone in the picture boxes and turned red and ended up in the bin and i see our "the big mouth" jerry lewis is also on the turn. A pity as the Lewis cutdown is quite good and the sound and colour were amazing, but now its on the turn, also in a picture box. [Frown]

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