8mm Forum: Elmo The Best

This is topic Elmo The Best - Or Not ? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on October 20, 2008, 04:55 AM:

Is Elmo over-rated? Is possession just a snobbish pursuit?

I've got quite a few, but so I have with the Sankyo make.

I must say that I much prefer Sankyo, there always seems to be something to go wrong with an Elmo. Have they, perhaps, had a harder life?

Or, have I just been unlucky with my purchases ?

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on October 20, 2008, 06:02 AM:

I think your comments are quite valid and nothing to be ashamed of.Yes,I have a brilliant ST1200HD but it is not without its faults.Faults which have been rectified due to the good offices of this forum,otherwise it would have been a nightmare.I too have lesser makes-one of which is a lowly Chinon from the then Dixons.It still goes like an express train and has only ever blown lamps.Sound is good and recording is adequate.
The hierarchy prefer GS1200's-talk about finicky aint in it.The lower you go Elmos get better-even down to the ST600/800 range-had those too with no problems.No,anyone who thinks GS1200's are the all and end all are entitled to their opinions,but I would not buy one even if I could-which I cant because of their inbuilt reliance on electronic switching devices.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 20, 2008, 08:17 AM:

Interesting comments!

Snobery! I dont think that is the case really. Elmo was a very popular brand in the cine heyday and sold many machines. The 8mm machines were based on their ever popular 16mm designs which allowed for easy film path cleaning especially the gate.
Reliability I dont think is any worse than other makes on the market. Any machine can suffer from the electronics failing.
I have a Sankyo 800 coming to me for repair this coming weekend with a dead amplifier. Look in the General Yak section at the Ealing thread where you will see a picture of Craig Hamilton about to remove the back from a Sankyo 700 because the motor just stopped and then there was the B&H made by Sankyo which had slow running speed which seemed like the Motor control circuit had packed up.

One thing about the Elmo Range of machines is that they are well engineered and for the most part "built like tanks".

The GS1200 was their flagship machine with its 1200ft spool capacity, Stereo sound, 200W lamp, ESS sync pulse system, high power Stereo amp and Optical sound playback.
Yes the guides do wear and the switching can play up but like most machines they can be repaired.

Once the Sankyo gate wears which is common on those machines its then a bin job or likewise the Eumigs where the rubber drive wears out along with the sound heads or the claw gets snapped off on the earlier versions. They all have their faults....show me a machine which doesn't.

It's "horses for courses" yes the GS1200 was an expensive machine but look at the features it's got which is what most people bought them for. In all the Movie Maker tests the GS1200 had the best light output over any other projector and I think this was the plus point which really sold it. No not snobery but getting most of what you want in one package.

Be interesting to hear other peoples comments.

Kev.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on October 20, 2008, 08:28 AM:

I'm sure there are projector snobs out there, but I've used a lot of projectors in collecting since 1959....and for 8mm, I've settled on the Elmo st1200HD's...as the most versatile AND RELIABLE of machines...ease of repair...ease of getting at the film midway ....super sound....and with the f1.1 and f1.0 lenses...and the xenophot lamps....they approach the brightness of GS1200's without the finickyness.( is that a word?) It has the big reel capacity..the stereo playback ( using monitor out jacks)...but far far less gimmickry..relays, switches,,..etc.
Fewer things to go wrong. I ran my original machine...bought in the mid 70's....until just last year with only routine belt changing and maintenance with no problems. A lot of film went through it. The only reason I replaced it was that the picture was getting a bit unsteady...which I'm sure someone with expertise could fix.
I also , though, enjoy using the little elmo 180...and the Eumig 810D's. No snobbery here....just practicality.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on October 20, 2008, 08:30 AM:

I have had my share of really wonderful machines. Sankyo S800, Eumig S940, Bauer T610, Beaulieu 708El Stereo. And of course the Elmo GS1200. I loved them all but I have to say that I love the Elmo and the Beaulieu the most of all. If the Beaulieu had better sound and Pulse sync capability I might prefer that over the GS1200 but it doesn't. So I feel that the best projector that I have used is the GS1200. I have owned...at least 8 of them including 3 Xenon machines. Everytime I sell one I end up getting another one.
Once you are used to the piano type keys, the bright picture, the great sound and also just the solid build quality...its really hard to use another machine.
Just my favorite machine....now if any of you know of a Xenon GS1200 for sale let me know...US Voltage please! [Smile]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2008, 09:38 AM:

Not! (snicker) [Razz]

I wouldn't mind buying one someday, just to see what all the hoopla has been about!

My personal favorite is the EUMIG's, of course.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on October 20, 2008, 12:06 PM:

Let's not forget the age of these machines as well as this must come into it,i've had a couple of GS1200's in the past and have to say they were a joy to use and very reliable.I've got a Sankyo 501 that is faultless and performs trouble free every time,yet my Sankyo 800 has a sound issue and another identical machine i used to have was the same but they are still nice machines.ST1200's are normally very reliable and give many years of trouble free service as Gary stated and they are well built units,i think Elmo's(dare i say it) look nicer than the more plastic machines and were made out of better quality materials that have stood the test of time....Mark.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on October 20, 2008, 02:32 PM:

I suppose there are snobs in any sport hobby or life. I have used the GS1200 and fully understand the comments on the potential for it to throw toys of out the proverbial pram. It does look the dogs biscuit though when running......sorry that's not what there for is it....to look at.....well maybe a bit....ooooeeerrrrr.

But then I have also been fortunate to play with the ST1200. Fab. Build like a tank, a bit noisy but booooming sound, 1200ft things and enough trimmings to keep me happy.

But the Sankyo 800 is a peach if you get a nice quiet one. Great sound and it just purrrrrssss and is nice to look at...doh there I go again......

to be honest, I really don't care what projects the film so long as I can see a good picture and it doesn't scratch it!

[Wink]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 20, 2008, 03:42 PM:

Snobery... I doubt it I bought my my first Elmo ST1200 second hand in 1979 and reckon it was the best projector I have ever owned. Its now 33 years old and although well used it still runs really good, what I liked about it was 1200 ft capacity, easy to clean the gate and film path between shows, its 150watt lamp and when fitted with a 1.1 lens a nice bright picture as well an ideal projector in every practical way especially if you were to use it for away film shows.

Later on around 1995 bought my first of many GS1200 projectors although they do have problems I still consider it the Rolls Royce of Super8 without Elmo I would have probably given up on super8 years ago....Elmo.... snobbery no.... practical yes..

Graham. [Smile]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2008, 04:10 PM:

Sincerely, with all my snickering comments, I don't think there is any snobbery involved. From everything I've read about them, they are a crackerjack of a projector. They do seem to be the projector of choice, especially over in the UK ...

as, it seems, the EUMIG's seem to be the projector of choice over here in the states. Could part of this be due to the availability of each brand in the countries? (by the way, I'm not writing off all the other countries, just using the UK to represent the rest of the world) It seems like Elmo's are more widely available in the UK, while EUMIG's seem to be quite available in the states.

Posted by Mike Tynus (Member # 1108) on October 20, 2008, 04:41 PM:

Maurice,
Perhaps you have just been unlucky with your Elmo purchases. I once bought a GS1200 new in the box and it had one thing after another go wrong with it. Since then I have bought a few used ones and they've all performed beautifully. The GS is my favorite for the feel and image quality. My only complaint is with its tendency towards film abrasion. But with the occasional modification it will treat the film nicely.

As far as sound quality goes, nothing beats the Eumig S938/940 models. Even films that haven't been recorded at the right azimuth (soft sound) sound clear on these machines. Their soundheads may be real fragile, but the sound quality is the absolute best. And no mods have ever been necessary on these Eumigs to keep films running abrasion-free.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 20, 2008, 04:48 PM:

Over the weekend I heard about Beaulieu and Fumeo 8mm projectors which had a 2200ft reel capacity.

Are these hard to come by?

Anybody got any photos?

-Mike

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2008, 05:04 PM:

I can certianly back up Mike Tynus on his statements about the Eumig's magnificent sound quality, especially in stereo.

I have an extremely worn out condensed version of "Magical Mystery Tour" (30 minutes long, just the songs!), which was re-recorded in Stereo, and I'd swear, when listening to it over a good pair of headphones, the sound quality has extremely little hiss to the background, (it was recorded at just about the highest volume without distortion), and, except for the restored remastered versions of this on CD, you really won't get any better quality. Even with the stereo Derann's, this has the best quality stereo sound I have ever heard, and that Eumig really puts it out.

... but it does take quite a few good cleanings of those heads but fortunately, it's very easy to get to the sound heads.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 20, 2008, 05:26 PM:

You guys keep going on about the sound quality of the Eumigs and yes I agree with those comments when used with their internal speakers they do beat the sound of the GS.

Put a GS through an external amp or even plug in some decent speakers such as the ES1000's and the sound is near hi-fi. Elmo I think took the view that the sound should be coming from the screen and not the projector so put cheap speakers in the projector.

Now take an ST1200 or ST600 and I bet they can give the Eumig a run for it's money in the sound department through their internal speakers.

The other point about the Elmo range is that you do see the whole image. Take a film that's been through a Eumig a few times with its smaller frame area and project it through an Elmo, you will see scratching down the extreme edges [Eek!]

This you wont see on a Eumig because of the smaller aperture. I'm not knocking just Eumigs here because the Noris range and one or two other German brands are the same. Elmo at least stuck to the correct super8 spec for the gate.

Its this sort of attention to detail that gave Elmo the reputation they have.

I cant comment about the Fumeo's as I have not seen or used one but the Beaulieu is another story and after owning one is certainly not the machine for me. I hated it.

Kev.

Posted by Mike Tynus (Member # 1108) on October 20, 2008, 05:59 PM:

Yes, that is a shame that the Eumigs have a smaller picture area, and though they did correct this to show the whole image on their later models, it is very significant that even down to the Elmo 600 there has always been proper image size. I'm also blown away by the volume level of the 600 for such a small machine.

Kevin, if I may ask, what was it about the 708 that you hated? I've always considered getting one, but at their extremely high cost have been a little reluctant.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on October 20, 2008, 07:42 PM:

Elmo the best...well, I have never run a Fumeo or a Beaulieu, so for me (and especially for the money) my ST1200HD is the best machine of the ones I have used.

I started with a good Eumig 807 when I was 15 (and those machines are nicely done for budget projectors) but once I upgraded to the Elmo in the early 80es, I never considered switching again. I lusted after the GS1200, but never got one; who knows.... [Big Grin]

In retrospect, the ST1200 has pleased me with its good picture and sound, and equally with its strong, unfussy design that, as mentioned, feels more like a 16mm machine than any of the tricked-out models other manufacturers had on market at the time. Peace of mind and reliability are important for me, more so than options.
It's not a bright as I'd like it, but the 1.1 lens helps. The swing-out lens and film path design is very nice.

What I wish Elmo had done would have been to make a heavy-duty, high light-output (350-400W regular lamp or small xenon) model without all the fancy add-ons of the GS, like a "SuperST1200".

It would be, like my Eiki 16mm, a solid, easygoing machine that concentrated on the basics. Elmo of course had a market to satisfy, so they went with the luxury options instead. But to imagine a semi-pro ST1200 for more institutional applications...
one can dream, right [Big Grin]

All this said, the feel of the ST1200 has always been just right for me, logical and easy. And the thing does run and run [Smile]

To this day, I have yet to see a film it won't run (knock on film cans.)

Claus.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2008, 08:03 PM:

Could part of that "smaller apeture" on the EUMIG be due to the dual Super/8mm standard 8mm models? I do know that the earlier EUMIG models did have a smaller apeture,

but I, when I first heard this a good while ago, took snapshots of still frames from a number of projectors, (at that time I had 6 different variety/brands of projectors, two EUMIGS and five different other brands) with the same film print, and while the earlier (and a few of the other projectors) had a smaller apeture, the later stereo EUMIG and a few of the cheapies had the same larger apeture.

... which has at times been annoying as well, as, sometimes full apeture allows you to see a little of the mag stripe edge as well.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on October 20, 2008, 09:13 PM:

I have had many projectors over the years,including a GS1200 and two ST1200 machines,Solid but finiky machines.Your print better be perfect or the picture will be all over the place.The person who got me into film collecting when I was a child was also a projector repairman.He bought a GS1200 and hated it,He said it had more moving parts than needed and hated the framer,as did I.He had two GS800 machines that were great.But,I'm with Osi,I love the eumigs.For optical sound,I thought the Chinon 9500 sounded better.Some of the most expensive machine were mechanical blunderbusters.Anyone want a Heutier Stereo 42?Now,there is a pig of a machine.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 20, 2008, 09:23 PM:

I agree with Osi, I can see no difference in the gate aperture of my Eumig 938 versus my GS1200. The earlier 800 series Eumigs perhaps have a slightly smaller aperture. The stereo sound quality of my Eumig 938 beats, in my opinion, the sound of the GS1200, even through external amplifier and speakers. It just sound a whole lot cleaner, with really good bass frequencies. One problem I think the Elmo's have is a tenedency to WOW with certain kinds of films, particularly if they have been recently lubricated. WOW is non existant on the Eumigs, and I attribute this to the much larger and heavier loaded pinch roller on the Eumigs, versus that tiny little pinch roller on the Elmo's. They are both great machines, and they both have their individual strong and weak points.
I will resist the temptation to post a picture of the Elmig again!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 20, 2008, 11:36 PM:

Why Paul, are you talking about that wonderful mixing console on the EUMIG? (snicker).

I agree again, Paul. Kevin, if you have a EUMIG stereo, run it through a Dolby surround sound processor, (A stereo film of course) and you will be blown away!

I have an OLD realistic brand Dolby processor, circa late 1980's, (no kidding, that old!), and it still works like a charm and those stereo soundtracks that were encoded with the Dolby sound, (like Star Wars, for instance), really do knock you out!

I must admit, I have not actually heard the regal GS1200, so i may think it's sound is quite impressive as well.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on October 21, 2008, 04:14 AM:

Many thanks to you all for your comments.

I have ten Elmo in Super 8 (including three GS-1200) of which only two, a GS-800 and an ST-600, worked "straight out of their boxes", all the others needed attention. It's strange that projectors are advertised as in good working condition and when you buy them, they are not.

I think the GS-1200 was designed by a committee. Yes, the push buttons are cute, and the left control panel is good. But, oh, those awful sticking out switch levers; just waiting to be snapped off.

In comparision, I have four Sankyo and two Sankyo badged Bell & Howell projectors. No trouble with any of them. And the Sankyo Stereo 800 is a joy.

Perhaps owning and using a projector is like the same with a motor car. You tend to fall in love with a make and stick with it. I have just ordered my third Skoda.

Posted by David Erskine (Member # 1244) on October 21, 2008, 12:01 PM:

I've got a couple of Elmo 8mm (1200 & 1200D) which I bought to find out what the fuss was about! For 'big' pics I use my trusty Fumeo 9139 (Marc 300) O&M and for slightly smaller m/cs I have Fujica SH30 O&M and so on down the scale with a couple or 3 Eumigs (1 set up for Std8) a Yelco, a Braun, a Fujica SD Auto & even a Fujica SH6. When we moved house - to here in Letchworth (the world's 1st garden city, dontcha know!) my lady, Carol, thought I had 23 projectors (I *knew* I'd got 30). However - when she'd packed 'em -- she said I had 43!! Still, I cover 35, 16, 9.5 all 3 8mms (std/Super/Single) so I'm happy as a pig in pooooop! It seems as long as I buy her De Walt power tools, she'll even let me sleep in the house some nights!!

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on October 21, 2008, 02:31 PM:

David, Hi and welcome (belated)

Tell me, where did you get that model called carol? Equipped with De-Walt and tolerates cine and lets you in the housr.
I must get one...... [Big Grin]

Posted by Colin Robert Hunt (Member # 433) on October 22, 2008, 10:21 AM:

The Elmo's I am using the 1200 & 1200HD date from the first one's issued. They have run many feet of film. The Elmo is the best designed projector that I have used. I cannot answer for the later Eumigs, but I used to sell the early sound machine the Mark s's and the 700 series. When the Elmo's came on the scene the sound was so much better and the whole way of projecting film was transformed. Again the 1200ft capacity was another major breakthrough from the Eumig 600ft maximum spool.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 22, 2008, 06:02 PM:

this is always a fun topic, as each and every member has a fond love for they're specific projector of choice.

LONG REIGN THE EUMIG!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 22, 2008, 06:18 PM:

I think the moderators may have to forbid Eumig/Elmo discussion as an extension of the no religion rule!

(It's right up there with the old cement/tape splicing go-round!)

I sit on the fence on this one, but lean towards the Elmo side for better access to the film path.

I know the external appearance of the machine matters very little, but my Elmo is more like a piece of sculpture, the Eumig more like a box with lens and reels poking out!

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 22, 2008, 07:01 PM:

Of my many projector experiences, the BAUER T-610 has been the best in my personal experience.

With absolute sharp and steady picture, stereo sound, and runs as quiet as a mouse.

The Elmo ST-1200 and Sankyo ST-800 are close second place.

(I've never owned a GS1200 or a high-end Eumig).

James.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on October 22, 2008, 11:23 PM:

The problem I have had with the Eumigs and the Bauers and Sankyo's are the light output. It just seems that the GS1200 is so much brighter. Noticeably brighter.
I remember showing the "Coal Miner's Daughter" on the Eumig S940...great sound for sure. But the bulb went out and I had to use the Beauleu 708 and the first thing a member of the audience said was, "Wow. Now that is a picture!" The Beaulieu and the Elmo GS1200 put out a significantly brighter picture and since the frame of Super 8 is so small...we need as much light as we can get. If the Eumig had a brighter picture and 1200ft capacity...hmm....maybe it could be my only projector. But since it doesn't...I have to stick with the Beaulieu and the GS1200. The Beaulieu is BTW..brighter than the GS1200 and its only a 150 watt bulb! But then again its a 2 bladed shutter. But still.... [Smile]

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on October 23, 2008, 12:16 PM:

About 10 years ago I bought a Elmo ST1200. I bought it unseen and got it delivered in the mail. First I was a bit disappointed because it was about the oldest version of the ST1200 and it looked a bit tired. How wrong I was! The only thing I had to do with the projector in those 10 years was change the belts. Other than that it just goes on and on. I suppose those older models have fewer features and therefore fewer things can go wrong. But still you have the 1200' capacity, the 150W lamp and excellent lenses available.

Last weekend I bought a newer ST1200HD in Ealing. This is meant to be an upgrade and therefore I will sell my old machine soon. But I will run the newer machine for a few weeks before letting the old one go. I like the Bauers too and I am still trying to get my hands on a Eumig 938 or 940, but if anyone ever asks for a reliable and affordable S8 projector, I always recommend an Elmo ST.

- Rob

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