8mm Forum: Elmo st800

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Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 09, 2009, 03:54 PM:

hello to all.And i m very happy to be a member of this forum.

Basically i had no idea about old projectors or anything like that. i was the vintage radio amateur guy. i was buying them broken reading learning and fixing. But recently i promised to my mother in law that i would try to fix her old projector so that she would be able to see her wedding film. So i manage to have everything working, i ve replaced the lamp and its working fine except one very serious thing. i do not know how they call it but the rubber that was giving movement to the second arm that moves the film melted and i don't know from where to find sth like this here in cyprus. is there any good online store to buy this drive belt. or if its possible can i make a drive belt by myself.
Ahh one more think where can i buy manuals for these machines?(since i get into the game i will play)

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 09, 2009, 04:08 PM:

Hi Phillipos,

I have one of these machines and have replaced the belts.

Here's where I got them:

http: //cgi.ebay.com/Super-8-ELMO-St-800-Projector-Belts-2-Belt-Set_W0QQitemZ350207512922QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5189fe915a&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

This is a full set: he sells individual belts too.

I've also frequently seen manuals on e-bay.

It's a good idea to find a cheap used film and run it a few times before you run the wedding film to make sure the projector isn't scratching film.

[ June 10, 2009, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 09, 2009, 04:49 PM:

Thank you very much mr. steve

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 09, 2009, 07:13 PM:

My pleasure!

If you have any questions about this machine this is a good place to come: I've used mine a lot and have come to know it inside and out very well.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on June 09, 2009, 07:24 PM:

They have great sound too, but you must make sure the rollers in the top sprocket shue are running freely, very important.

Best Mark.

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on June 09, 2009, 08:04 PM:

Philippe,

a warm welcome from me too [Smile]

...perhaps it would help if you uploaded some pics of your projector so that we could help you with any specific issues you might have!
Btw you're the first Cypriot to writ in here; do you know of any other Cypriots sharing our hobby? I've never heard of any to be honest....

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 10, 2009, 10:52 AM:

Hello yianni and thanks for the warm welcome i will post some pics later tonight. i don't know if any cypriots share our passion but there should be some around.

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 11, 2009, 12:21 PM:

Hi again because i was in a hurry i patended a drive belt which works fine until my order arrives from the states. i will make some silly questions please don't laugh with my ignorance. Firstly i get no sound what should i check and secondly the film is shown upside down what should i do.
Thanx in advance.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 11, 2009, 01:05 PM:

Easy one first (I get to handle this one!)

Picture upside down.... The film has not been rewound since it was last shown (it will also run backwards). Rewind the film, then the START of the film will be on the outside of the reel. When it is projected, the picture will be the right way up.

Martin

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 11, 2009, 01:13 PM:

No sound is usually because the contacts on the record key are oxidized: this goes double for a machine that has been in storage for a while. All you need to do is unplug the machine and press the red key above the selector knob like 5 times. My machine is pretty active and I still find I keep having to turn the volume up higher and higher until I do this and restore it to normal.

If that doesn't do it try getting a phono plug and plugging in and out of the jacks on the rear panel. Oxides on those killed my sound when I first got my machine. When I plugged in a headset trying to figure out what was wrong I immediately had sound, which came out through the speaker once I unplugged it.

...otherwise we'll need to start digging!

If the image is upside down that means the film is wound backwards on the reel. I bet the action is mirror image and in reverse too! You just need to get a second reel and wind it onto that and try again.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 11, 2009, 02:00 PM:

Welcome Philippos.

The "no sound" could also come from the fact that the film was projected "tail out" (ie - backwards and upside down), therefore the soundhead couldn't catch any track as the recording was on the other side.

Once you've managed to screen the film right side up, let us know if you still don't get sound (providing you're projecting a sound film)

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 11, 2009, 02:24 PM:

Good Point, Jean-Marc!

-not a scenario I've ever considered.

The sound would be kind of cool if it did play.

"!!nmad a evig t‘nod I telracS ylknarF"

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 11, 2009, 02:36 PM:

Jean i turned the film and now i can see it correctly!!!!But still no sound.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 11, 2009, 02:38 PM:

Jean-Marc's point about it being a sound film is also a good one. In the world of film you can't take this for granted.

Do you see a thin, dark brown line down at least one edge of the film?

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 11, 2009, 02:46 PM:

Hello Philippos, welcome to you, Ive yet to visit my family in Cyprus but i do intend to one day, My Father was from Famagusta. [Wink]

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 11, 2009, 03:33 PM:

Yes Mr Steve the film i found(please don't ask me what kind of film is it) it has a dark brown line in it.
Also as about Tom you are welcome anytime. By the way i am from Famagusta too.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 11, 2009, 03:49 PM:

Very rarely you'll run into a sound striped film that has no sound recorded on it, I've been collecting films for years and only seen one. This could be it, but probably isn't.

When you turn the volume up and down, do you hear the line hum increase and decrease?

Hmmmm...Here's a good one:

The back cover which contains the speaker has a plug and socket in the speaker cable so it can be removed from the rest of the projector. When you take those two black phillips head screws off and tip the back cover away, can you look in and see those two connected? (Wouldn't be the first time this has happened...)

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 11, 2009, 03:54 PM:

Mr Steve they were connected. Also when i turn the volume button i can hear the humming getting louder

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 11, 2009, 05:58 PM:

Here's a little magic trick:

(This works better for the married guys: you'll need a wedding ring!)

Turn the volume up, move your ring close (not touching..) to the sound heads. Does the sound of the hum change as the ring gets closer? If not your heads are either dead or their signal is not getting through to the amplifier.

Single guys can use a metal washer: much cheaper than a wife!

[ June 11, 2009, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 12, 2009, 02:38 AM:

Fortunately or not [Smile]

i am married when i get the ring closer i hear the humming go louder. Mr steve the sound heads looks to work but the film seems that is not touching the head any ideas?

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 12, 2009, 03:34 AM:

Philippos, before getting any more technical, let's use common sense. Find another film with sound...

Several scenarios:

As Steve suggests, the film could have a stripe with no sound. I've had some Disney shorts - mostly ride films from the theme parks - that were sold as "silent" but were prestriped (I later created soundtracks for them).

Or it could be that the previous owner has erased the original soundtrack. Either by accident ("Well, I'll put my precious little film on top of that pile of magnets where it will be safe") or intentionnaly to test the recording functions of his machine.

Do you have access to a friend wth a different projector? You could try the film on another machine.

Is the ST800 dual track? You could pick the humming from the balance track head and have a dead main track head. I've had this problem on an Eumig S936.

Now if the film doesn't touch the soundhead, it's a different matter. The pressing mechanism could be stuck. Spring could be broken. Or it's the loop forming release system when the machine is turned into prjection mode after threading that's malfunctionning.

There are differences in these systems between the ST600 and the ST1200 and I don't know which one the ST800 uses.

[ June 12, 2009, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: Jean-Marc Toussaint ]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 12, 2009, 06:04 AM:

I think we're getting someplace here.

The ST-800 has a chute which moves out of the way to allow for threading but presses down with a spring loaded plunger to hold the stripe to the head.

When you are in any mode except forward projection this should be up, then it should press down on the film when projecting with sound.

Mine stuck in the "threading" position once due to some foreign object wedging between the cam on the selector knob and the rod for this chute and there was no sound.

This chute pivots on a screw at the lower right and is pressed down by a spring stretching diagonally upward.

Do you see it move up and down when you turn the selector knob in and out of forward projection? It should come down and press flat to the head.

Careful: Don't press it down on the film: if it only partially engages its roller will drag on the film surface (instead of turning) and put a mark in the middle of the image.

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 12, 2009, 02:40 PM:

Mr Steve sorry for delaying i just came from work. i opened it again and tried another film that was given to me also with a brown stripe on the one side. this chute you told me is moving, but maybe its not moving enough because it leaves about 3mm from the sound head.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 12, 2009, 02:57 PM:

Wow, you work late!

I on the other hand am unemployed at the moment, so time is always available!

The chute should actually squeeze down enough that the little plastic plunger collapses its spring and shoves the film down directly on the head. (3mm may as well be a Kilometer in this case).

There is also a pinch roller on the same chute that has to squeeze down on the film so the roller on the other side can spin a flywheel and smooth the chatter out of the audio.

If you take the back off the machine and run a film and that flywheel isn't spinning, it's for sure the chute isn't clamping down far enough.

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 13, 2009, 06:02 AM:

Mr Steve nope the chute moves a little bit but not enough. Also if i understand well the roller below doesn't move.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 13, 2009, 10:46 AM:

I meant the big flywheel inside the back cover has to spin. If not then the chute isn't pressing it's roller down on the flywheel's pinch roller.

If so then we have a mechanical problem: probably fixable too. The chute is pushed in and out by a linkage that connects all the way back to a cam on the selector knob. It's a bunch of flat steel plated rods that ride on slotted bearings. There are also assorted springs and pivots. Today it would just be a bunch of boring ICs and some firmware: at least this is visible and understandable!

There are plenty of ways this can get hung up. Maybe in one of the bearings the lubricant has accumulated dust and isn't sliding freely. A little cleaning and some (...very little, actually) light oil will get it moving again. As I said, I had a situation where this piece of debris wedged between the cam and its follower and kept the follower from moving in completely when the cam was allowing it to. There may be something wedged in the area of the chute itself that is holding it up.

This requires a few quiet hours and common hand tools, maybe a glass of wine or beer (but not too many...). In the old days it was almost mandatory to smoke a pipe, but who wants lip cancer? If you remove parts you may want a partitioned container to put them and their mounting screws in and a pad to write down where it all came from.

If I do a really big teardown (worse than this) I shoot digital pictures, print them out and make notes on the pictures so everything goes back together.

Happy Hunting!

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 13, 2009, 02:05 PM:

thanx Mr Steve is going to be a long night.

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 13, 2009, 06:31 PM:

aaargh i disassembled almost everything now the chute moves closer but still no sound.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 13, 2009, 08:07 PM:

Does the flywheel spin now?

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 14, 2009, 03:29 PM:

yes it spins.i am so disappointed.is there any other way to check the sound?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 14, 2009, 04:18 PM:

There's no reason a 30 year old machine can't have multiple troubles.

Can you go back to the beginning of the thread and go through the whole list? (-especially the part about working the switches and jacks?)

PS: Do you see the film being held directly on the head now? Is that little plunger squishing down completely?

Also: If you turn the volume up full, do you hear any audio along with the hum?

Posted by Philippos Pattichis (Member # 1608) on June 14, 2009, 06:08 PM:

from what i see now it squeezes the film completely.as for sound no just humming.

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