This is topic Eumig S802D possible problem...again.... in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on April 29, 2011, 05:49 AM:
It seems that I will never stop having problems with this projector...
but until I save some serious cash for a more advanced one, I need to keep running the eumig.
Lately I've been having some problems with the films I run.
Had some bad accidents with destroyed film, but that turned out to be mostly (at least that's where I concluded) my fault since it seemed that I wasn't pressing hard enough the front guide switch....
Anyway...the most serious and annoying problem I have with the projector is that frequently, the film (and hence the projected image) tremble....and tremble a lot.
I've also noted some traces of damage on films between the sprocket holes...possible due to the film not getting held correctly inside the machine...
I've noticed that some reels don't sit tight enough on the reel bracket, and solved this problem by using some paper between the clip and reel...
However I keep getting "trembling" film problems...
Last night I was screening some new films I got and had the problem show up again. Any chance the problem is caused by the film not being tighlty winded in the reel?
any ideas?
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 29, 2011, 07:07 AM:
I know what I am about to say may sound just too obvious but I think it's beter to make 100% sure that you know well this machine.
First off: the 802 D is a dual gauge projector, as the "D" suggests; it works with both Reg 8 and Super 8 but some parts in the machine have to be changed when switching from one gauge to another.
Therefore: could you possibly be running the projector with the wrong film-gate and/or toothed drums? The right film-gate for S/8 is the one with an "S" printed on the side facing outwards (to the projectionist); and the drums must be those which can be pulled out from the machine (those for Reg 8 are fastened to the innerworks and can't be removed that easy).
Just my toppence... Hope it works
Posted by Alexander Lechner (Member # 1548) on April 29, 2011, 11:35 AM:
Hello Ilias!
I have some of the "sister" machines of yours (804 D, 810 D) and yes, they tend to do what you describe. In my experience it ONLY occurs with older film material and I guess the cause is that it is slightly shrunk; with new film material (I do some 8 mm filming) it never ever happens.
Once the picture trembles you can press the front guide switch quickly, but hard enough - this is by the way also described in the instructions. But problematic film material will continue to start trembling.
BTW: Those Eumigs are not the only projectors doing this: the worst experience I had with a Bolex 18-5, which also scratched the film in the end. My Eumig 940 also starts to tremble with old film material but not as much as the 800 Series.
Problematic film material you can also hear: the projector runs noisier than with new material, which can be close to silent.
I don't know about other projector makes but I'm sure other people on the forum can tell you more. I actually wouldn't expect too much when you put such film material in any projector.
I hope I could help.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on April 29, 2011, 02:25 PM:
Hello and thanks both for your replies...
@ Maurizio: this has been discussed when I first bought the projector. I'm using the correct gate and film sprocket part for super8 and I don't have the parts for Normal8. I have also checked that the sprocket is placed correctly in spot.
@Alexander: as you said Alexander, I tend to get this problem with specific films, ie film stocks. Thanks for the tip about pressing the front guide. I used to stop the projection, run the reel backwards and then start again. I used the front guide switch a couple of times but didn't correct the problem, however I pressed it only mildly. I'll try preesing it harder next time.
In any case i'm glad it's a problem of the series and not of my projector only....
I'll keep using it carefully until I find a new better one ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 29, 2011, 03:22 PM:
Hi. Can you post a very close up of the gate? It may worn out over time and become prone to the problem you described especially when this cascades with what Alexander mentioned.
Also there are two screws inside the film gate: they hold in place a side film guide which is extremely important as regards film positioning relative to claw-to-sprocket engaging, a crucial parameter for this kind of dual gauge machine. If this guide is even slightly misplaced, the problem you described may arise espacilly with shrunk/poorly lubricated/dirty films. Hope this helps.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 29, 2011, 07:02 PM:
I have found that careful adjustment of the position of the fixed side plate edge, as Maurizio describes, solves the film shaking problem on both the 800 and 900 series Eumigs.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on April 30, 2011, 02:33 AM:
Hello Paul,
by side plate edge you mean the small plate with sprockets that changes between normal and super 8? If this is it, then What do you mean proper adjustment. The way I see it the plate has two plastic things that engage inside two little holes....
what more can you adjust on it?
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 30, 2011, 07:10 AM:
Look at the metal part: right around the film aperture, there two side guides, one fixed, one elastic: the former is held in place by two screws; if you losen them, this guide will move a little so as to enable precise adjustment regarding sprocket positioning relative to claw movement: you can also adjust horizontal alignment with this so be careful. The first thing you may want to do prior to attempting any of the operations described, is to put the film gate in its operation place and observe where exactly the needle-shaped claw engages the perforations: chances are this occurs either too inward or too outwards as opposed to the vertical side of the holes: in both case this will result in very poor image steadiness. This operation will help you figure out to what digree and in which way to adjust the side guide.
Ciao!
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 12, 2011, 12:34 PM:
Hello,
I finnally found some time to mess with my projector.
Maurizio, many thanks for your insight and help.
So, I checked everything you said and everything seem ok to me.
I post some pics of the shutter part....I see the two screws you mentioned.
Can you please tell me a "safe" and secure way to check if it is ok?
I was thinking of placing some film on the track and try to adjust the screws until it is tight, but how tight should it be?
http://img560.imageshack.us/i/p1020429large.jpg/
http://img696.imageshack.us/i/p1020427large.jpg/
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on May 12, 2011, 01:21 PM:
So, are you suggesting the film is not tight at all?
It should be tight. From the pictures I see, I understand you located the possible culprit, yet:
1 - this part is called "gate" and not shutter,
2 - in your case, there is no apperent reason to assume the problem depends on it, in fact it looks like new with no signs of wear.
But you can do a very easy test to assess if you can absolve this part:
put a piece of film ( 4-5 cm, framed, white leader) in place and hold the gate against a light source: the film should offer some restraint in being let pulled but not too much; also the adjustable part of the gate should be set so as to have the frame line parallel to the film aperture AND the sprocket hole should be a little more than a hair off the aperture (OK let's say two hairs).
That's all I can suggest at this point, but also check to what extent the claw tooth protrudes into the gate: if it's too little, then wear of the claw arm peg has occurred and the tooth will never protrude outwards enough any more: it's time for replacement.
Good luck and let me know.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 12, 2011, 02:07 PM:
Ciao Maurizio,
thanks for the fast reply.
Before I read your message I decided to gamble a bit on it and I loosen the screws a bit and moved the part closer to the "gate". At first the film felt tighter inside the gate but I just tested a film and had the same dreadful result of "trembling film".
I'll try to see If I can check how much the tooth protrude and will let you know....
I've spent lots of cash on films lately and I cannot enjoy them properly, so this is getting really frustrating and i'm already looking for another projector....
EDIT: UPDATE....
Ok I tried to take a photo of the film on the tooth...it's the best I could do, I can see that only one tooth is clearly in the film, the other 2 are not exactly hanging on the film, maybe this is a problem?
Maybe it's worth trying to find a replacement sprocket or something....
http://img849.imageshack.us/i/p1020431n.jpg/
Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on May 13, 2011, 04:23 AM:
Hi Ilias,
As Maurizio said.......
"Look at the metal part: right around the film aperture, there two side guides, one fixed, one elastic"
Check that the film guide without the screws is free to slide freely on its track. I have seen quite a few of these that look Ok, but when tested they are stuck or tight, and wont slide freely. They provide the correct side pressure to the film. If they are tight or stuck then the film wont slide freely through the gate. Use a penetrating cleaning spray to dissolve any debrie behind the guide or in its track. Then try it again with your finger to ensure it slides freely under its spring pressure.
It uses a hairline spring which is very thin & must be spotlessly clean to work properly. Many are not cleaned properly for years & become tight, due to dirt, debris or wax deposited there by the film.
Also, check that there isn't a ball of fluff caught on the claw finger tip. This builds up slowly till there is a birds nest on the claw tip & it prevents the claw from penetrating the film sprocket hole sufficiently. Then it will start causing problems till its cleaned off.
let us know if that helps. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Alexander Lechner (Member # 1548) on May 13, 2011, 05:30 AM:
There is a possibility that the part that you show in your last picture causes problems. Maybe somebody dropped it once and the teeth don't release the film evenly anymore. I once had an Eumig Mark 8 projector, which is basically the same construction, that had some deformed teeth and this caused an unsteady image.
Not very much help if this is the cause - you'd have to get a new part.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 13, 2011, 07:37 AM:
Thanks for your replies guys,
i'm already looking for a new more reliable projector, but nevertheless I definetely want to repair this one.
@ Frank: thanks a lot for your films. The "elastic" part of the gate works ok, I've checked it and is moving without any hassle, in any case i've also cleaned it, as well as the rest of the moving parts, so no fluff either.
@ Alexander: I have been started to think that what are you saying is the problem. I've noticed that the film from the reel sometimes is not totally parallel to the reel when entering the projector, so a possible deformation not allowing the film to be released evenly sound possible to me.
I'll try looking for the parts, any chance anyone has any of the said part?
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on May 13, 2011, 07:40 AM:
Although the last picture you posted is not very relevant to this problem, chances are Alexander's idea is worth checking albeit for other reasons/possible consequences. Deformed teeth on the sprocket wheel may certainly happen: each tooth should let the perfs go without putting any stress on them. But even if there is some stress in this section, I doubt this may cause the problem described in this thread.
Ilias, please try to check the issues pointed out by Frank, and take that picture of how much the claw tip protrudes.
Let us know. Don't despair!!!
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 13, 2011, 05:31 PM:
Hello Maurizio,
I had the impression that the claw finger tip that Frank mentioned was the part in the last photo.
The only tips I see that catch the film sprockets are the ones in this photo and then at the end of the film's route, before it gets out and to the pickup reel.
If i'm wrong, can someone explain where is the claw finger tip?
Please forgive my ignorance about projector specifics, i'm still trying to learn my way around.
For once more thanks a lot everyone for their help
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on May 14, 2011, 03:48 AM:
In any projector there are two organs that transport film: sprocket drums (the ones you photographed) and the claw which is an intermittent needle-like organ which engages one perf at a time 24 times per second. The claw is located close to the lamp and protrudes into the film-gate through on opening in the gate itself (it is visible in the pictures you provided).
At this point I have a dreadful suspect: may you have damaged the claw tip, since you didn't know there is one in the film gate? I am saying this because the film gate/film pressure assembly must be removed from its place in the projector only when the claw is totally retracted otherwise damage of the claw is almost certain. To be sure this doesn't happen, ALWAYS put the inching knob (on the rear, far-left side of the projector) with its white dot at h 12: this way you can be sure the claw won't be damaged.
But I understand at this point it is imperative you take a picture of the claw tip: I'll try to post a photograph over the next days (my 804 is in another home), to show you exactly where it is located , in case these notes don't suffice.
Later,
Maurizio
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 14, 2011, 05:05 AM:
Ok, now i'm sad....
Maurizio, thanks a lot for your detailed reply. I know understand fully the parts we are talking about.
To be honest, now I remember that the guy who sold me the projector, told me about the knob at the back of the projector. and to be honest again.....I think I might have removed the gate a couple of times without turning the knob to the correct place.
I'll try tracing the claw but I think I'm out of luck here...or better i'm full of stupidity
So, I'll go and check the projector later today, but i'm afraid this is the problem. So, is this problem fixable or the projector is doomed?
EDIT + UPDATE: Ok couldn't wait and checked the projector....I think this is the problem. I was stupid enough to damage my own projector......argghhhhhhh ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
here are some photos just for you to confirm the damage
http://img847.imageshack.us/i/p1020433large.jpg/
http://img546.imageshack.us/i/p1020436large.jpg/
http://img23.imageshack.us/i/p1020441large.jpg/
Anyone knows if this is fixable? or actually if it is worth fixing?
Posted by Alexander Lechner (Member # 1548) on May 14, 2011, 02:04 PM:
No damage visible for me there. You turn the knob at the end of the projector to the position with the red point up that you can not damage the claws; this does not mean that you will do any damage if the knob is not in that position.
What gets me is that you write it is a 802D, which would mean that it is a two format projector; but the D versions do not have two claw fingers but only one. Something fishy there ...
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 14, 2011, 02:16 PM:
Yeah, when I first bought it I looked into that matter and the seller told me that he just changed the cover or something....
So, you really think there is no problem from the photos? If you check the last photo, I tried placing the half part of the gate to check if the teeth protrude in the gate. They do seem to protrude 1-2mm but I don't know how much they should protrude or not....
If you think that there is no problem with the claw, I'll try adjusting again the screws on the gate and tighten the film....
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on May 15, 2011, 05:03 AM:
To Aleksander: the user's manual specifically proibits to open the gate/pressure assembly without setting the inching knob to the position you mentioned. Probably Ilias has benn very lucky with his disassembling in that the claw tip(s) were retracted per se, but I woulnd't try that again.
I agree with you on the rest, though: non visible damage and the fact the claw protrudes 1-2 mm is absolutely OK).
But I seem to detect some fluff around the tip, which someone has said to be accountable for this problem, and I agree.
Also I don't undertand how is it this projector has a double toothed claw: this is inconsistent with the fact it is a dual gauge machine....
I'm a little confused.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 16, 2011, 12:31 AM:
Hello Guys,
Today I am happy again!!!!!
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! I still can't believe that the whole problem was created by the "fluff" around the claw. I couldn't even see that there was fluff aroung the claw.
So I took a toothbrush and some alcohol and cleaned it well, I've tested the projector with 3-4 reels that used to have problems and voila....the projector is working like a charm
I really want to thank Maurizio and Alexander, guys your help was very valuable and I really hope I can do something to help you in the future.
I have some more news though, I was at the local flea market yesterday and I picked up a real bargain. I got a eumig 810D for like very very cheap. I wasn't expecting it to work and I actually bought it thinking that I might be able to maybe use some parts.
I was more than lucky with that, came home opened the projector and it was impressively clean on the inside. Tested it with a crappy film and it was working like a charm. Even the lamp was working. Added bonus was the 1.3 eumig lens that came with the 810D, which is a great upgrade compared to my old 1.6 eumig lens.
This is the real dual unit, not like my frankenstein 802D.
The only problems with the 810D is
a) it misses the two wheels used for the normal 8mm (however it has the gates)
b) the plastic part with the silver metal that holds the reel on the bracket is broken or missing on both brackets. I checked the inside of the machine and it seemed almost impossible to change the complete bracket with all these sprockets that has inside, but I was hoping there is a way to change or fix the plastic.
I'll come back later, probably with a new thread and post some photos of the problem.
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 16, 2011, 07:32 AM:
Hi Ilias, congratulation fro your find.
I am not sure with your 810D, but some Eumigs have switch for Std and Super 8mm without need to change the wheels.
For example is my 610D.
Can anyone list what other Eumig series that has this type of switch?
And why some Eumigs don't use this instead by changing the gates and wheels which for some people is quite annoying.
cheers
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 16, 2011, 08:59 AM:
Τhanks for your reply Winbert,
The wheels on the 810D look a lot like the ones on my 802, so i'm afraid they probably won't be suitable for normal.
In any case i'm going to take a few photos of the projector and open a new thread for it, since I have some more small problems with it!
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 17, 2011, 07:19 AM:
Hello again,
this is actually getting seriously on my nerves.
Last night, while thinking that the projector was fixed now, I tried to watch some films.
I watched 3 silent films without any problems, was very happy with the result, picture was steady and no tremling of the film.
Then I went to watch a sound super 8....
DISASTER....
when I turn up the volume, even if no film is loaded or playing I get a very loud humming drone sound.....The same happened with film.
I'm not sure if it means anything, but I remembered that when I was cleaning the projector to repair the previous problem I had accidentaly pressed a couple of times the red recording button on the back of the projector.
So, yesterday, after discovering the sound problem.....I was trying to figure out what was wrong and pressed the rec button again...and the humming sound stopped....
Any chance when I pressed the button while cleaning something went wrong and shortcircuited? I'll open today the projector to check the inside for any visible problems...
I am seriously starting to wanna throw the projector out of the window.....
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on May 17, 2011, 07:48 AM:
Hi Ilias
Sorry to read of your Eumig trials but hopefully this may be of help.
I’ve loved the 800 range since the 1970’s when they were originally introduced and spent many happy hours next to one of these machines. The red button (recording switch) does act up on them due to the rather tiny/poor contacts on the amplifier board which are located at the other end of the red buttons cable. To do a simple clean of these contacts is easy and you will not have to take the machine to pieces.
Basic switch contact clean/test
Turn the main control switch to reverse without lamp on
Keep the volume setting very low but not off
Then push the red switch in and out rapidly
The switch will not stop in but it will move any dirt which may be on the contacts
If you have the volume up just a little you will be able to hear any severe bangs of audio problems which may suggest a fault further on.
How to lower the audio hum from a Eumig 800 model
Just below or off to one side of the sound head you will see two copper wound rings. These coils when moved slowly into different positions in a nutshell lower the audio hum you may sometimes hear coming out of the machine. To reduce hum carry out the following.
With the lamphouse cover removed and projector turned on & lamp, turn the volume control all the way up.
You will no doubt hear some hum from the projectors speaker.
Locate the two coils explained above
One is for Standard 8 and the other Super 8.
SLOWLY move one coil until you find out which one is for Super 8
The hum will lower of increase depending where you move the coil.
Once set you will never need to do it again.
Looked after Eumig 800 series machines generally seem to last nearly forever and certainly mine are still going strong. Avoid cement splices as any cement overspill is abrasive to the sound head as it passes.
If we were in the same country I would say bring it round to save another Eumig! Hope the above helps.
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 17, 2011, 08:22 AM:
Many thanks for the detailed reply Lee,
i'm definetely not going to quit so easily on it, i love messing with electronics in general, and fixing this projector has been quite a challenge for me. Not to mention how many things i've learned about projectors all these days while trying to fix this eumig ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
i'm definetely going to try the process you described, some of the things you mentioned (like cleaning the contacts or even re-soldering them) I had already planned to do, I was even thinking to do a capacitor replacement on the sound board if I can remove it easily.
Hopefully i'll have the time to mess with it later tonight and will update the thread here...
btw, since you seem to know your way on eumig projectors, if you have some time please check the other thread i've opened about a S810D HQS I found, maybe you can also help there
cheers
ilias
Posted by Ilias Sifakis (Member # 2417) on May 17, 2011, 02:49 PM:
Ok, fixed the sound problem also!
Thanks again Lee for the tips, your suggestions helped me also!
Now everything is good with this eumig....
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