8mm Forum: STORING FILMS TO LONG

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Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 22, 2011, 02:07 AM:

Can anyone discuss the storing to long or not playing enough your films. Can or will create VS in time. I sometimes want to keep my films like new and running them create scratchs or damages to the films .When you have a lot of films how do you watch them all the time?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 22, 2011, 01:04 PM:

I've never heard of any problem that can occur as a result of NOT running films, although if you have any new ones that are shrink wrapped, it might be wise to remove the wrapping to help them to 'breath'. If films are tightly wound, you might also be more likely to cause a bit of a curl to develop towards the centre, particularly if they are acetate.

Buy the way, your 'Avatar' box label looks good - is that one you produced yourself?

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 22, 2011, 01:27 PM:

Adrian, thanks for your info but can the reels breath when they are stored even if you play the films.? How do a reeled up film get air? And I heard that films in clam shells get VS or rot when they are left in the clams to long is this true? What about plastic or metal cases . Should I leave them slightly open.? What about the temperature or heat and cold? Will it effect the color or wringling of films? Oh and I bought the film AVATAR with the art work case as it is.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 22, 2011, 01:30 PM:

From what I've heard films should be stored cold and dry (I store my films in the bedroom closet).

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 23, 2011, 01:24 PM:

Theb only thing I would personally suggest is every once in awhile, give your films a good cleaning with a film cleaning solution as, while they should hold up fairly well, some stocks get more "brittle" with age, (earlier eastman stocks, for instance), and a good film cleaning solution, (especially one that is more of a lubricant than cleaner) is your best bet.

By the way, yummy looking films there! Love that projector!

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 23, 2011, 10:15 PM:

Thanks so you think my films are yummy? I want to protect them so they stay yummy. I saw people with book cases full of films how do they keep all those films clean. It would take so much time that you would have no time left to enjoy the films or do anything else.I use the famous film cleaner FILMGUARD. So you think cold is good but hot is not? I live in Las Vegas and it gets hot . I have my films as you can see on the ground and keep the fan running most of the time in the Hot summer leting them get air. And during the winter it gets cold so I just let them be. But I have lived here for 10 years and my films stay the same. Some of my films are more then 30 years old and I did live 10 in Hawaii ,and 10 in London. I have not noticed any change of color or smell to any of them in all those years. My Elmo Hi Vi sion SC 18 projector is a very nice running machine. I love it I take it into my big movie room were I keep my big reflective screen and it rocks! Then I break out the popcorn and drinks with my friends and check out a flick they love it Super 8 movies wow! Then when I'm by my self I watch the Elmos little TV like viewing screen I love it. I used to take my projector to theatres and would have showings of my films useing the projection booth .Do to the rare nature of some of my movies the managers would love it. I would plug my Elmo into their sound system with my patch cords and with my F1.3,f=15-25mm zoom lens I would bang out a show. Anyway back to the point of the topic Storing films to long when do we just say goodby to our beloved collection of films. We can't clean them and store them properly?

[ November 25, 2011, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Laksmi Breathwaite ]

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on November 24, 2011, 07:49 PM:

Hi Laksmi,

It sound like you have been doing everything within your scope to protect the films as much as possible. Heat rises so keeping them low to the ground is a good idea. I keep my super 8 collection in a dark cabinet and try to see at least one print in the group every day. The acetate prints will get a vinegar smell if stored to long in constrictive cases, especially clam shells and cans. Many are on printed on polyester so those will never get VS.

I've thought about selling my collection (in times of hardship) only to find another reason (film or projector) to keep me in the hobby. However, I really appreciate the social and cultural value that comes from screening small gauge films. As the collection expands, I pay special attention to acetate prints and keep all of those affected by VS quarantined.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 24, 2011, 09:41 PM:

The technical rule of thumb is 70 degrees and 46 percent relative humidity.

If anyone has a dedicated space with that type of A/C system, then it would be ideal.

It becomes hot on Long Island and I the films are kept in one shaded room,
that is located on the North East side of the house. I turn on a window
box A/C around 12 noon because that is when the room begins to heat up.

My take is that high humidity and heat is a not good atmosphere for the film.

VS is also a problem that is attributed to poor film processing, and that includes home movies.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on November 24, 2011, 10:20 PM:

Laksi

I think the Avatar film you bought used to be mine!
I made that box.
PatD

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 25, 2011, 01:05 AM:

Pasquale, cool cover I'm keeping it in the family.I heard a few times about keeping the films in a refrigerator? But I would think that to much cool can create moisture? So I think they need to be a bit dry. And yes I think the processing has a lot to do with preserving films and their life span.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 25, 2011, 07:01 AM:

quote:
.I heard a few times about keeping the films in a refrigerator? But I would think that to much cool can create moisture?

Yeah our very friend Osi is always saying this theory [Big Grin]

But, I have told many times here that "cool" is not necesserally dry.

If we go to the North Pole, Penguins will eventually die and get rotten. Why? because North Pole also has high humidity.

So when you keep your films in a freezer but your freezer does not have enough low humidity, the result will be the same with keeping the film outside.

So like Chrsitian says above, the rule of thumb is Cool and DRY.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 25, 2011, 11:41 AM:

There is logic behind the theory ...

I know I have mentioned this before, but how many of us film collectors have been to a camera shop and found that they keep they're unexposed film in a small freezer unit?

There's a reason for that. The cooler temperatures allow the unexposed film to last longer. I have actually used film (in the past) that was a good five or more years past the "use" date, which was kept in a cold unit. Other film, same stock, same age, but not refridgerated has tended to give far from good results.

However, I always need to add, ALWAYS, upon storing in a cold environment, have selica gel packs or some kind of substance, in those freezer bags, that keeps potential moisture away, as moisture is just as damaging as excessive heat, probably worse.

[ November 26, 2011, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Osi Osgood ]

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 25, 2011, 11:50 AM:

SO why even keep the films in cases or make holds in the cases for ventilation so you don't get VS or rot? Where or how do big film archives of studios perserve there negatives or films for years? Do they have big temperature controlling rooms or something? Oh Osi do you keep your films in a refrigerator? What do film sellers like Derann, Blackhawk,Castle,Red Fox, Films on Super8 Australia do ? The film sellers for years must have some secrets to keeping their films safe or preserved like even with not opening the shrink wrap on a new film. Like in a market you have a sell by this date on the package or something. And can our films out last VHS,DVD or Blu-rays?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 25, 2011, 01:56 PM:

quote:
I know I have mentioned this before, but how many of us film collectors have been to a camera shop and founf that they kep they're unexposed film in a small freezer unit?

I understand that point Osi, but as you mentioned, they are unexposed films.

What we are talking is print films.

These two are different things.

I am not saying that keeping films in a cold storage will not bring good effect, but I am emphasizing that DRY (low humidity) is another that we need to be aware.

So check if your fridge has low humidity or not.

Cold and DRY storage... that is good for films [Wink]

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on November 25, 2011, 05:13 PM:

I remember reading somewhere lately that polyester film base will last over 2000 years! Every collector lives under different climates so, it is up to the collector to choose the maintenance and methods that best suit the conditions. VHS will probably degrade faster than a DVD but, film already has such a strong head start on both formats.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 26, 2011, 12:06 AM:

There are medical quality DVD's, because DVD media will degrade. There are some
DVD media where the digitized image may also fade. Don't quote me but some have claimed that Me_o_ex were troublesome. Hopefully the chemistry has been improved.
I don't want to create any grief. Then again, we don't know the longevity of digital media. Here today and gone tomorrow.

Keep film in a freezer is ok. There could be a limit on how long it can remain in the freezer. I was told by someone that the film can craze, but it's important for the film to remain vacuum sealed and unopened. Many photographers keep the film cold.

Yes. The vaults are climate controlled.

The Blackhawk Films building in Davenport Iowa, was a former brewery and the films were kept well due to the stable conditions. The building had three basements and the lowest one (the caves) was once where the vats were kept.
These cool cave tunnels were an excellent place to store films.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on November 26, 2011, 12:44 AM:

Laksmi
You are getting very good advice here. The cool and dry theme is the important one. i would not advise Osi's method unless you are as meticulous as Osi. In the archive I work at i have to deal with the aftermath of someone improperly "freezing" film inside a normal commercial freezer and it ain't pretty. You need a totally frost free environment, or else you have the presence of moisture which as Osi said will do more damage.....

In the archival field we say the second important theme for film longevity (after a cold/dry environment) is exercise. Keeping a record of your film activity (especially with large collections like you have) can be crucial. For the films that you are not watching regularly you should at least take them out of their containers and roll through them on your rewinds once every couple of years. You don't even have to clean them if you don't want, simply the movement is helpful...It is like anything that sits too long.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 26, 2011, 12:27 PM:

Now, Dino is going farther than I ever have [Smile]

I've never even thought of keeping a record of how many times I have screened a print.

Oh yeah, my fridge is a frost free and largely (probably not perfect) humidity free fridge, and I never freeze my prints, just keep them cool. Idaho, while the winter is fine for just leaving out even eastman prints, the summers can get well over 105 degrees for weeks during the summer, so cool storage is a must.

Why all these fancy covers, Laksmi? Simple, we collectors like our pretty covers! [Smile]

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on November 27, 2011, 02:03 AM:

polyester film base will last over 2000 years!Wow! And I like the record of how many screenings my films get. I used to do it in my head but with many films you must write it down. Oh and cool and dry is good I guess that is most logical. Plus I smell my films every time I open a case. And I watch the film more if it has a nice cover . It makes me think to notice it more in my collection. The 400 foot reels or 600 foot reel film boxes have nice big attractive covers more better then VHS, DVD's, or Blu-rays. You notice them more like record albums or Laser Disc. So films that are in air tight don't need to be opened will never get VS? So air is what takes it toll or helps when it has finally been exposed.

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