8mm Forum: Picture Problem - Damaged Emulsion! Help!

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Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on January 09, 2012, 04:43 PM:

Can anyone help me? I got this copy of "Dumbo The Flying Elephant" today and was very alarmed at what I saw. It looks like the emulsion has deteriorated in several places. When played, it looks like a black tornado is rolling across the screen.

Take a look here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvGqgpDSZxY&feature=youtu.be

It comes and goes throughout film.

Mold may be the culprit. The film has no VS but it is musty. It may be a lab error. Or it could have been damaged by another projector. I got a copy of "The Beautiful Briney" from another seller and it has the very same problem as "Dumbo".

Will film cleaners help? I have never used it but I am seriously thinking of buying some Film Guard. Is it worth it? Will it work?

If not, is there any way to fix and/or save this film or is it completely ruined?

[ January 10, 2012, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]

Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on January 10, 2012, 05:24 AM:

I recently received a film with the very same marks. I was thinking it may be where a previous application of film cleaner on the film was not sufficiently dry. I was going to have a go at cleaning the film and I wanted to ask the forum what cleaner is available now days. I used to use the stuff sold in a red can from Deranns about 10 years ago(Thermofilm?). I was wandering what product now days, sold by the surviving film dealers in the UK, has good cleaning properties rather than just being a lubricant?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on January 10, 2012, 07:57 AM:

Filmrenew available from Larry Urbanski, US.
Filmguard available here in the UK from Paul Foster.
Mr Muscle Film Cleaner from Tesco, Sainsbury, etc.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on January 10, 2012, 09:40 AM:

I should just get another copy Chris. People give that reel away nowadays so it's not worth the trouble of applying the wet treatment with distilled water to see if it minimizes the damage.

Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on January 10, 2012, 10:24 AM:

Well, would someone like to give me a copy then? [Smile]

I have been looking for some time and this was the only one I could find on eBay. I did find the other reel ("Big Top") but it's silent.

What about the other film? I don't think anyone is giving away "The Beautiful Briny" from Bedknobs & Broomsticks. Like "Match of the Century", "Briny" is a great little digest. It has the whole entire song. It is really too bad this film is damaged because the color is awesome. I got it from the U.K. It was processed at Buck Labs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyDBUpm1fm4

I have to ask. What is the wet treatment? Will it help my film?

Also, Martin says he has the same problem. It's a universal problem? What causes this kind of damage? Can it be stopped or reversed?

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on January 10, 2012, 12:04 PM:

Chris,

I've never come across those marks before, however I would suspect they occurred in the lab. I doubt if any film cleaner could help.

Doug

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 10, 2012, 12:46 PM:

I agree with Doug. I at first thought it would be improper cleaning as well, but those marks definitely have a "rotating" nature them, which would speak of some "roller" (for lack of a better term) that came into contact with the film during processing ...

... or perhaps, some kind of cleaning mechanism that you put your film through, which holds the film tight and unfortunately was touching the film at the wrong spot?

At any rate, it was definitely some rotating "roller" that was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on January 10, 2012, 03:56 PM:

Thanks for the info on Film guard, sold by Paul foster films. Incidentally the film that has these marks on was only just received from Paul a fortnight ago. It did not say in the listing that it was marked. I wonder if I should point this out to Paul when I order the film guard from him, or still accept the film or send it back?

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on January 10, 2012, 04:37 PM:

Well that makes 3 of us that have seen these types of marks on Disney prints of that era, so looks like a lab issue.

Filmguard is marvellous stuff, but it wouldn't help with these marks on the print I had, so sadly Chris I think you may need to find another copy.

I'm sure Barry Attwood at Independent 8 had some; worth checking out his lists at the BFCC website if you don't already subscribe to them.

Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on January 10, 2012, 08:31 PM:

Thanks, guys. Now I know there is nothing I can do to save these films. It might still be a good thing to get some Film Guard, though.

In the 30 years I've been collecting film these defects are the first I've encountered. Of course, I have only recently been getting film from the U.K., which is where both these came from. So, for all the good things about Buck Labs, like using Fugi instead of Eastman Kodak, there is a dark side as well. I wonder if this was a problem at U.S. processing labs.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on January 10, 2012, 11:49 PM:

I have come across marks like these on 4 or 5 occasions and I'm sure they are not the result of film treatments applied by collectors. In my case, the films were bought brand new in the 1980s and they were all Buck Film Labs acetate prints where the emulsion was to some extent 'stuck' to the areas of film it was in contact with. In places, you would hear a cracking sound as it separated when projected for the first time, and then see those marks in the corresponding places. I'd guess that there were batches of film that were spooled too quickly after printing, hence the tendency for the problem to affect several copies of the same film. I recall finding this with another 200' Disney title that I bought from Portland Films in London, but when I exchanged the print for another copy a couple of times, the replacements were more or less the same.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on January 14, 2012, 12:25 AM:

Strange thing is that it almost looks like something was done with black ink, like a marker was involved but the ink didn't soak in evenly.

I've two prints of similar suspicion, and while there's no way to be certain of their origin, the clues are consistent with Buck Labs. One, which I got rid of ("Whistle While You Work"), was a Fuji print with significant fading except for one substantial and uneven streak down the middle. There's an interesting clue to be had about the chemistry of color fade there. The second print I still have, and it's also on Fuji, and has recurring soft spots in the emulsion and uneven sound.

Methinks also that Buck Labs didn't let their prints dry.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on January 14, 2012, 06:53 AM:

I just watched about a minute of the transfer Chris but couldn't watch any more owing to the flicker which was possibly too bad to bear because my monitor exacerbated it. But it is possible the marks in question were caused by something sticking to the emulsion at the time the print was produced. The wet treatment may eliminate it so just give a short length of it a test by putting a damp cloth along a few feet of the affected area and then leave it to dry before winding it back on the reel. If you reel it back too quickly you'll find the emulsion will stick again and you'll have even more black areas to re-soak.

I have had some success in getting rid of similar marks in the past but I have to say these were definitely damp affected areas where the emulsion had stuck. Wetting the film causes the emulsion to swell so repaired the damaged area. Best use of the wet treatment is for getting rid of or reducing green emulsion scratches. Ideally distilled water should be used but I use spring water from our own well which seems to do just fine. Don't get the film too soaked otherwise you'll have definite water marks on the projected image.

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