8mm Forum: Re-prints, collecting and value

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Posted by Jason Lappa (Member # 3297) on October 31, 2012, 04:09 PM:

I have been a collector for about 25 years now. Primarily comic books, cards and the occasional toy. I am new to the world of film collecting so I am not certain exactly how things work quite yet with respect to original prints vs. re-prints. However, I am quite aware of how reprints effect the world of comic collecting.

For the purpose of this post, there are two types of comic book collector. The investor and the reader.

The investor is an investor first and a comic book fan second, if at all. The investor is always thinking about a purchases with an eye towards growth potential and return on investment. Investors are obsessed with preservation, as well they should be, protecting your investment is only logical. Typically they do not buy second prints (or reprints) as they have little to no growth potential (there are exceptions of course, in cases where the first run greatly out-numbers the second). Regardless, the investor benefits from and should embrace the reprint. More on that later.

Readers are in it for the love of the story, art or writing. Readers think about what they love first and may not consider the growth potential of any of the books they have ever bought. The reprint is great for the die hard reader, it is a low cost option to enjoy the medium that they love. Readers read, plain and simple. The reader relies upon the reprint for this reason.

Born of these two types is the hybrid collector. I myself am a hybrid collector, I buy books that I feel have growth potential for a return on my investment. However, I only buy books that I really want to read and enjoy. I won't buy a Justin Bieber comic even if I think it will rocket in value, it's just not interesting to me. I do not often, if ever, buy reprints unless the original is untouchable with regard to price because I want a solid ROI. I love the Silver Surfer but I am not about to go out and buy number one in mint condition just to read it. (Not yet anyway! [Smile]

Now... why should the investor rely on and embrace the reprint? The answer is simple, popularity. Anything that acts as a catalyst for popularity growth is good for the investor. An issue that is reprinted due to wild popularity acts to set the original apart. This often (not always) increases value. It does not necessarily dilute the market for a given issue as it is a universal constant that a first print holds a certain cache. That cache is something that investors are willing to pay for and in no small part depending on the popularity. Popularity drives value and to some extent rarity.

How does this translate into the film collecting world? I am sure that you have placed yourself in one of the above three categories. I find myself in the hybrid category again. My collection consists of a handful of classic Tom and Jerry reels, a cherry Derann scope print of Star Wars: A New Hope and a scope print of Alien. True to my comic collecting form, investing in my tastes.

Would I buy a reprint of a scope RotLA? At $750 I may just go for the original instead [Wink]

My .02

Jason

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 31, 2012, 06:10 PM:

Hi Jason,

First of all, most of us don't care with re-print because we all know that all films are re-printed [Big Grin]

Some collector will proudly claim that one of his film is the first run. But this will tell more about the color condition where the second run is more bluish tone than the first run or the first run has better sound strip (pre-striped vs paste striped).

By having this you will see that the price of a particular title will be more or less the same (at the same range of time of course) no matter it is the first print or the later.

Second of all, most of us here buying film to watch. I know in there are some people in vinyl collecting habit buying sealed LPs for the sake they are still sealed and listen the music from CDs instead.

We buy films, open the seal, take the reel out of the box, put them into the projector and enjoy the movie. You will see that this processes will scratch the films eventually. Therefore there is no such "MINT" film if it is already passing through the projector gate.

In this regard, we are the most generous collectors from any hobbies in the world because we are still pricing high for film with scratch and color turning which if it is in philatelic world will be seen as funny.

The main reason is because most of us like the romantica of putting the film into the projector and enjoy the film in the darkness, something that we cannot find on today`s DVD.

Last but not least, I always say to new collectors that dont ever think to invest your money in this hobby.

cheers,

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on October 31, 2012, 06:12 PM:

Well put Winbert! [Wink]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 31, 2012, 06:51 PM:

That just about says it all.It's a hobby,not an investment, well
said Winbert.

Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on October 31, 2012, 09:00 PM:

Winbert, you couldn't have said it any better.

Posted by Raymond Glaser (Member # 1766) on October 31, 2012, 09:28 PM:

Winbert, you captured it !!!

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 01, 2012, 09:15 AM:

I think reprints are more relevant in the world of 16mm, where getting an 'original' is valued because there may be dupes printed from other 16mm prints of the same title around. There are Super 8 shorts in circulation duped from other prints but it's less of an issue. However, a 16mm 'original' could potentially have been printed years after the first prints.

Although I'd agree that this isn't a major issue in the world of Super 8, it's worth remembering that there are certain popular titles (I think 'That's Entertainment' was one) that were eventually withdrawn because of quite substantial visible wear on the master. Therefore a print from the first batch of this would generally be preferable to a later one. On the other hand, though, I had two PM films prints of 'The Wicked Lady' 600' that I was never quite satisfied with, but I later bought a new Derann reprint that was excellent in every respect, despite being on colour stock. Fortunately the labs were producing better prints for Derann than were possible in the PM era.

But I have to disagree with Winbert with regard to wear on film. It all comes down to the use of equipment that doesn't have worn guides, etc. Apart from extremely rare 'accidents', none of the films in my collection have any visible wear, even ones I bought 30 years ago and have run many times. Although they might not technically be 'mint' in the sense that close examination would show that they have been run - due to wear from guides on the very edges - if they look exactly like new on the screen, they are mint from my point of view, and I wouldn't think it unreasonable for sellers to describe such films as mint. I'd concede that if I was to run a film 200 times, I'd feel quite fortunate if it still appeared perfect, but in my case that's unlikely to happen!

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 01, 2012, 09:45 AM:

I seem to remember this issue of "mint" condition being raised
before Adrian, but I view it that however well looked after a print
has been, if it has been projected, it is no longer mint condition.
A coin collector would not pay "mint condition" money for a coin that had been in circulation,which is where the term comes.
A better description is excellent condition,as "mint" would still be
factory fresh and unused in the shrinkwrap.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 01, 2012, 09:54 AM:

Adrian, in regard to first print vs later print, this is that makes different with book collecting hobby.

In super 8mm collecting hobby, the later print can be given more appraisal than the first print, but in book collecting hobby (as well as vinyl collecting) it never happened.

As to scratch, you can take good care the film you buy brand new because it also depends how frequent you play it. But buying second hand films does not guarantee anything, yet the collectors keep buying it.

Let us see....in any vinyl trade fairs, buyers will bring the vinyl under the light to find possible scratch, appraise the cover and then make a bargain if there is flaw found. As well as in philatelic hobby, collectors bring a magnifier and catalog books. In comic trade fair, the books are put in a plastic bag and only open if there is a serious offer. They open the book slowly page by page and....with hand gloves on.

But us...? we pull the films out of the reel with our bare hands [Razz]

, we check only the first meter to see how the color does look and if there is possible scratch ....then we can summarize the whole reel is good or bad... [Big Grin]

How come we know the picture in the middle of the reel...? only God knows... [Big Grin]

More over we don't too care if the original boxes are present or not, in fact some of them are only in plain boxes without any artwork. A tatty box does not make the price down as long as the film is good, right?

With all those mentioned above, yet, we still price the film high. That is only because we love films (as the material).

Jason, since you new to this hobby, you will see what I am saying that we love the romanticism of putting film in the projector. We can go to retailers and found a DVD compilation of Tom & Jerry or Laurel & Hardy for $5 each. There are 5 stories on each DVD...but we are not happy if someone put them in a gift box and present them in our birthday or Christmas [Big Grin]

We prefer to spend $25 for a 200' reel of Tom & Jerry with only one story... [Wink]

Posted by Jason Lappa (Member # 3297) on November 01, 2012, 02:40 PM:

Ok, so the majority of the responders have been "viewers". Are there no investors out there?

Also, why is it that one film can come in at $500 and another at $1200? What is driving that?

While I understand and appreciate the passion for the ritual of watching actual films through projectors, there are investments to be made in this world of film collecting.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 01, 2012, 03:00 PM:

quote:
Are there no investors out there?

I think I read somewhere here when a member say "I have three copies of "the Sound of Music" bought brand new. All films are still sealed"...this is "the investor" type

But I don't know what type of investor is this if those films were purchased in 1995 (the second booming of super 8) for (e.g) $500 and sold them after 16 years for $600 each. This means only 20% increase or 1.25% in annual rate.

Since brand new print CAN STILL be made (read this thread: New Films can be purchased cheaper than some used!) buying brand new prints is NOT an investment. On the other hand, buying second hand print can bring more profit. This is what I learnt from 8mm scene.

quote:
Also, why is it that one film can come in at $500 and another at $1200? What is driving that?

There are many aspects involved. Like a finger print, you cannot find an exact print. This is due to the lab process that can create different results. Some print can have more blueish tone or yellowish depending what stock was used at the time, chemical used, negative, etc, etc. Even some people say one lab in different region can give different result because of the type of fresh water in the area.

That is from technical aspect, but from physical aspect can also congtribute to the price. As I said above, print can have scratch or color turning. Of course people will appraise more with clean print and beautiful color.

The other things is distance. People will not buy films from the other continent knowing they are heavy items that can bring high shipping cost. Therefore, colllector will prefer to bid on auction in their region and if there are more collectors in that region, the price will end high, although the same film is also offered in different region but not too many collectors around (e.g South Africa where film price is so low).

I think that is a brief explanation that can enlight you.

cheers,

Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on November 01, 2012, 03:08 PM:

Prices can also end high due to the popularity of the film as well. Not too mention if the initial bid is high as well. Sometimes people can get away with that again depending on popularity or the condition of the film. Prices can also end high because a lot of us collectors know prices can be high and we may be more willing to spend more money if it is a print one of us really wants. I think prices can wildly vary depending on all the things Winbert plus the things that I mentioned as well. It all depends. There really aren't any set standards for pricing.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 01, 2012, 03:22 PM:

People can still "invest" by buying large collections and selling them at a profit, of course.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 01, 2012, 03:27 PM:

An example i can give is one of my latest acquisitions, a feature
length version of SPARTACUS, its in Italian, probably a pirate
print with pale colour, but I can live with that just for the sake
of this great film on S/8.Imagine if U/8 had done a 2x400 of
this, what a seller that would have been.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 01, 2012, 04:41 PM:

Back to the economy, we do not see the amount of money we gather but the percentage of the profit we make. For example, you bought a reel of TJ for $5 and sell it a week after for $10 thatis a real investment with 100% profit although $5 extra money in your pocket.

Compared to buy $500 a brand new of "the Sound of Music" and re-sell 16 years later for $600. Although there are an extra $100 in your pocket, but the much money you spent and the waiting time to re-sell has made this purchase not become an investment.

So the graqphic of investing super 8mm films will be like this:

So Jason, there is nothing wrong to invest in buying super 8mm film but do it for:

- second hand films
- popular titles
- low starting price

ps: this my first time to upload a graphic in this forum [Big Grin]

cheers,

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 01, 2012, 06:11 PM:

In other words, if you want to be permanently "skint", this is the
hobby for you, apart from folks thinking you're odd for wanting
to sit in the dark for hours at a time watching old films.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on November 02, 2012, 11:01 AM:

Jason, I completely agree with the great information my friends here have provided. Film prints are a poor investment; rather, it's more like a gamble.

Maybe 50 years from now that will change. Hmmm.... the price will either finally go up (but not likely enough to outpace inflation) or down even further!

Posted by Jason Lappa (Member # 3297) on November 02, 2012, 12:28 PM:

Thanks all. Very educational indeed. So, not like comics, got it [Wink]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on November 02, 2012, 04:37 PM:

One thing to add...I have invested a lot of money over the last 7 years on my film collection...not as an investment per say but I know if I got in a bind the collection does have some resale value.

I may not make a profit but I could come close to my original investment. So that is a good thing.

I'm in it because I love film!

Bill [Smile]

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