8mm Forum: What's missing from my "Birth of a Nation" print?

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Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on February 08, 2013, 05:18 PM:

I own the Blackhawk 6x400' print of "The Birth of a Nation", but even at 16 fps, that only makes for around 170-180 minutes of footage, while the film was 190 minutes! Am I missing ten minutes of footage?

Now, I know that Dan Lail sold a 7x400 print of this a few years back, is this in such case a complete print?

Does anyone know the difference between the versions? [Smile]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 08, 2013, 06:08 PM:

Chris, I have the last three reel (3 x 400') of "BoN" should you know which reel you need.

And also I have around 8 * 600' Gepe reels should you still need it.

Cheers,

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 08, 2013, 06:16 PM:

Hi Chris, why not check your print against a dvd of the film, then
if there are any scenes toward the end missing, then you can take Winbert up on his kind offer.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 08, 2013, 09:33 PM:

I have this film as well, but it is some kind of rare print in that it is soundstriped and on a different film stock and exceptionally sharp. Though on 6X400ft, every single reel is filled to the very brim of the reel, so this print was probably, originally 7X400ft

... but, sadly, it does have a slight vinegar syndrome to it. Not much, but curious for standard 8mm, to be sure. (I have been informed that this might be because of the glue used for the laminate soundstripe).

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on February 09, 2013, 11:51 PM:

Hi Chris,

The film was re-released a few times, the original negative worn, a few times censored, some title cards are now lost. Originally released on 12 x 1600' reels on 35mm. Look at the notes at the beginning of the film, Blackhawk usually mentioned where the source material came from. Imdb has three running times listed: 165 min | 190 min | 125 min | 187 min (DVD)

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 10, 2013, 02:15 AM:

Christian, your print is not missing anything as there should really be no film prints of the 190 minute version. The 7 reel version you saw from Dan is somewhat of an anomaly and wouldn't have had any more content than what you have.His print was one of the silent 1970's prints that were only 2400 feet. Every single print that was released over the years was taken from the 1931 re-released sound version. The restored (190 min) silent version was not located and restored until the 1990's, so all of the versions out there by Blackhawk are going to be the 165 min version....To answer the next question it is not so easy....What is missing from the 165 min version that is present in the 190 minute version? This was a version that was edited to keep the story intact so the clips were done all over the place. An old friend of mine named Doug Moore even did his dissertation in 1968 on the intertitle differences between the two versions. If you think about that an entire dissertation could be written just discussing the title differences you can imagine that the differences between the 165 minute version and the 190 minute versions are not so easily listed.

Here is a picture of Griffith and the Aitkens taken at the time of the 1931 re-release.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 10, 2013, 09:05 AM:

Dino ...

Maybe you could help. The print I have is not the Blackhawk, (well, it doesn't have any Blackhawk titles, it just has all the original beginning cards from the original feature), it has very rich deep dark blacks with great contrast, 6X600ft and all reels full to the brim, so it probably was originally 7X400ft as i couldn't see anyone selling this and filling it to the brim.

It is standard 8mm with mag stripe. Now, I know it isn't a Niles print. Niles prints NEVER looked like this. Who released it? I'm the first to acknowledge that while I have a functional knowledge of Super 8, I'm pretty much a moron when it comes to standard 8mm.

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on February 10, 2013, 11:36 AM:

Hi Osi,

Look at the lab leaders, what is printed on them? If it's on 600' reels, perhaps they were mounted on those because the sound stripe will add another "layer" to the film to thicken the print...just a guess.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 10, 2013, 05:42 PM:

Gerald, on previous post above Osi saya that he has 6 x 400' instetad of 6 x 600'.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 10, 2013, 10:41 PM:

Osi, the quality from which you describe almost assures it is a Blackhawk that was striped...Does it start with the Griffith Films title, then into the "Plea for the art of motion pictures" and then into the "Birth of a nation" title? Using the DG title cards?

The Blackhawk intro was extremely short on this release and may have been clipped off yours. Are there any lab leaders before the first title?

The Blackhawk release was on 6 reels that really had to be restructured onto 7, because even on 7 they are near full reels.

The other companies that released the title on standard 8 were Niles, Thunderbird, Minot films, Classic Film Exchange, but these were no where near the quality of the Blackhawk.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on February 11, 2013, 02:50 AM:

Ah, OK Dino, then it's the 165 minute version like you say. I inspected all the reels last night, and could not see any splices, so nothing has been "cut" from it by owners, it's a complete Blackhawk print on it's original reels.

Yes, if you can write a dissertation on the intertitles alone, I suggest we save the differences on the film itself for another time, perhaps when all the power dies out and we have a few years to spare.

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