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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2013, 09:42 AM:
 
Ok guys,

We usually discuss "film you wish to be released"...but now I am talking the opposite.

In the super 8mm heyday people did not really care what was released. So film like "The Rose" can be released by Ken Films.

But after 1985 only few companies left, namely Derann, CHC, RedFox, Kempinski, Perry, Independent8 and some others.

They must released some titles but the options were limited. Perhaps one or two titles fell into the category of "failure to get buyers" or "I don't want to see/buy it even it is on film".

Can you share what do you think the titles fall into this category.

I will divide into two type of editing/version:

a. Digest/Short/scene select (i.e between 200' - 800')

and

b. Mini Feature/Full Feature (anything above 1200')

My self will say:

a. End of the Days (Derann, 600')
b. Chicken Run (CHC, F/L)

ps: Do not get confused with the quality of the print. We consider all prints were printed good. I just want to focus on the title/story. And they must have been released post 1985.

So what is yours?

[ February 23, 2013, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]
 

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Posted by Joe Balitzki (Member # 438) on February 22, 2013, 01:28 PM:
 
Wrong! In its Heyday people absolutely did care what was released especially considering the cost of a new print. Requests and Suggestions were often made to the releasing companies. And regarding "The Rose", it was a popular film at the time of its theatrical release and the Digest Version sold well. There were some who complained about the way the Digest ended, but with a restricted running time it at least ended logically at the end of the Title Song.
 

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Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on February 22, 2013, 01:55 PM:
 
Unfortunately, the title song, "The Rose", didn't make it onto KEN's 400 foot digest. I think this was the biggest disappointment about the digest. It was actually well-edited, other than this one issue.

The thing about The Rose is that, it was very popular "in the moment", back in '79 when it came out, but its not a movie that lives on decades later, like Star Wars or other films that appeal to home cinema enthusiests.

Back to Winbert's question-

I often wonder the same thing. One title that comes to mind is "Highlander". I remember Derann promoting this feature back in the late 80's/early 90's. It was advertised for a long time, yet I've never seen this movie on used film sales lists, so either its so good/popular that no one wants to let go of it, or, nobody bought a copy.

James.
 

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Posted by Joe Balitzki (Member # 438) on February 22, 2013, 02:03 PM:
 
I stand corrected. I remember the Digest ending at the end of a song but I thought it was the title song. The reason I am mistaken is because I remember reading a review about the Digest which commented on the editing. I have never owned a copy of the Digest. At the time it was released I did think about buying a print, but there were so many other titles to choose from that I wanted. In retrospect, that was/is a blessing because today a lot of them would have faded or red color.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2013, 02:17 PM:
 
Can we now stop diacussing "The Rose" because that is only an example. I might pick up another title., eg "Patton" 200' which contains speech only, and may be someother titles.

James, "Highlander" may be the one. I did not see this too often too.

Let's give your opinion, but must something post 1985.

[ February 23, 2013, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]
 

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Posted by Joe Balitzki (Member # 438) on February 22, 2013, 02:32 PM:
 
We can certainly discuss other titles but you brought "The Rose" up because obviously you don't think much of it. You want opinions, and you got some already. Now play nice.
 

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Posted by Vincent Zabbia (Member # 2453) on February 22, 2013, 03:29 PM:
 
THE GRAPE APE has good color and quality, but bored me to death. My Opinion Only.. I'm sure the Grape Ape has a large fan base.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2013, 04:25 PM:
 
Calm down Joe, I brought "The Rose" simply because it is the most often title to be joke around in this forum.

Vincent, who released Grape Ape?

And what you guys thing with "Matrix" series?
 

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Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on February 22, 2013, 04:52 PM:
 
Techno Film in Europe.

I liked the Reloaded extracts as these were the best bits of the original feature.
Didn't bother buying "Storm of the Sentinels" as I really disliked the last opus in the Matrix series.
I tend to agree with you re: End of Days. I know there are a lot of Arnold fans out there but it was indeed a strange choice.
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 22, 2013, 05:05 PM:
 
Actually the early 1990s scene was a bit different to the line-up indicated above. Red Fox and Kempski were no longer trading and I think this was before CHC started, but CEC were still releasing a few films. I think one of their features 'FX - Murder By Illusion' sold badly so it might be a contender if it was out by 1990. As for a digest/short, that's really difficult as there were quite a few that most of us would have little to go on in terms of sales. You may well be right that 'End of Days' was a contender, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the extract from 'The Lord of the Rings' (was it the second film in the series?) didn't do too well - I recall being disappointed by the content when I saw it. It didn't help that such releases were basically extracts rather than edited versions, so incomprehensible to people who didn't know the features. I think the Matrix extracts must have done OK as otherwise they would have stopped after the first one. Some of the later Derann releases had disappointing print quality with high contrast images, and so one or two like 'Early Bloomer' may have also sold badly, although I can't recall if that was one of the worse ones.

I believe the Grape Ape featured in Techno releases from earlier times, so isn't applicable here.
 

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Posted by Flavio Stabile (Member # 357) on February 22, 2013, 05:16 PM:
 
Hi Winbert,

sorry but I have to completely disagree with you about Chicken Run!

I'm absolutely enthusiast of this animated movie and enjoy my Super 8 copy dubbed in Italian. Considering that it has received 24 nominations (1 golden globe) and has won 22, I think I'm not the only who consider this a little "great" movie!

Of course we all know about the quality of the print, but, as you told, it's not the concern here...



Flavio
 

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Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on February 22, 2013, 05:31 PM:
 
I think the big problem we have is that there seems to be no exact figures of how many copies were printed for each title and how long they took to sell them. Im sure companies like Derann and CHC knew but always seemed very secretive giving that information out. You would think that these two companies (plus others) would keep delivery notes of when certain batches of films were received and also sales data. Im sure Ive asked them before but never really got an answer. I understand its sensitive information for various reasons but from a collectors view it would be nice to know exactly how many copies were printed.

As for End of Days im sure this was a slow seller as Derann still had copies near its closedown but the price may have had something to do with it at that time. If it was printed 5-10 years earlier Im sure it would have done better.

Graham S
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2013, 05:33 PM:
 
I understand your point Flavio. When saying Chiken Run, I was imaginating in today's situation where there was a very limited choice of title and the high price of a F/L, so if I were in a shop buying "Chicken Run" is somekind of dillema knowing Spiderman was also there.

So my hand would definetly pick up Spiderman.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 22, 2013, 05:51 PM:
 
It must also be understood that, as a general rukle, any releases, (especially in the 90's and beyond) were not just printed en masse or "willy nilly").

As a general rule, the independent companies that still exist, (including us at GIOSI films, though were quite dormant now, but would love to release again!), only print by demand as, each time a super 8 print is made, there are two copies made, which means that either the person who wants it, buys both or, the distributor has to find someone to buy the other copy, and usually, at a loss.

This is especially true when it comes to features because of the enormous cost that is ensued with just putting it out on super 8.

By the way, I just want to say a big thanks to those who own the 35MM feature prints that the lab of today uses to actually make the new prints hat are being made today. Without this or that person making prints from thier library available, there wouldbe NO new feature releases, or shorts, or cartoons, trailers, ect.

Yes, "End of Days", good choice.
 

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Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on February 22, 2013, 06:22 PM:
 
I purchased "Storm of the Sentinels" (Matrix extract), mostly to support Derann at the time. But I think it, as well as "End of Days" were poor choices. "Sentinels" is a somewhat colorless scene, as it takes place underground. The processing labs actually did a good job on the print, as its not too dark, like we know super 8 prints can be from time to time (See my review in the review section). But really, this is not the best type of material for a super 8 scope release.

Winbert- This is a great thread you started! Its spawned several interesting additional topics already.

Back on-topic now-

I think another poor-sales candidate would be Derann's "Police Academy 2". It is a 2 x 600 foot digest, and one that is seldom seen or talked about. (Although, I'm considering buying it if it ever pops up- the movie's grown on me through the years ).

James.
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 22, 2013, 07:44 PM:
 
'Police Academy 2' was actually quite early in the Super 8 revival, around the mid-1980s. Even if sales were comparatively poor, the market was bigger at the time.

I thought of a couple of Derann features that Derek acknowledged had sold in very disappointing numbers - 'Rocky' and 'Halloween', but I think that perhaps they were released by 1990, but even if they weren't, I'm sure that sales at least reached 20, which couldn't be said for some releases. Incidentally, I believe that CHC only printed 10 copies of 'The Day the Earth Stood Still', but as I temporarily owned a print, I think I can imagine why, in view of certain flaws that didn't encourage sales.
 

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Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on February 23, 2013, 05:00 AM:
 
I know that "Winnie the Pooh and the Blustery Day", one of the last 600' made by Derann, had quite poor numbers. One of my sources tell me that only eight prints were made (four runs on 16mm split), one of which is in Adrian Simmonds personal collection, as only seven of them were sold. Maybe it's because Super 8 had long since come to a "halt", at least as a mass market medium, as this was already in the early 2000s if my sources are correct.

I think what many here are saying could be a very valid reason, with limited prints and high prices, collectors have to pick carefully. I would be furious if I paid hundreds of dollars for a feature I "liked", just to see that next months release was a feature I loved! So like many are stating, I think most colllectors sat on the hands, waiting for the right print to come along, and so many prints that were in fact interesting prints; such as "Blustery Day", went the way of the dodo because the cash was saved for a "better choice".
 

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Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on February 23, 2013, 06:37 AM:
 
Changing the subject slightly here apparently Derann's biggest seller ever was the 4 x 400ft abridged feature "When Girls Undress"

Thanks to Barry Attwood for this little titbit
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 23, 2013, 07:06 AM:
 
Actually Mark, Derann's biggest seller was "THE SCARS OF DRACULA"
way back in the '70's that was available in 8reel col & b/w plus
the 400' versions & A STD 8 full feature,which is why Derek re released it complete.Derek released over 1400 copies of this film
alone, before the unedited feature was put out.
One release that didn't do as well as expected was "Fantastic Voyage",which led to Derek saying that he never wanted to hear
the words Science Fiction again, "Soylent Green" might also be a contender.

[ February 23, 2013, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 23, 2013, 10:50 AM:
 
Interesting that 'Fantastic Voyage' did badly considering that it's an unusual and highly visual film - and SF films can be big sellers. If anyone now put a print on eBay, I bet it would go for a high sum.
 

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 23, 2013, 11:39 AM:
 
Deranns biggest ever seller was Beauty and the Beast, (i only know this as it was a question i put to them in my FFTC mags Q & As to the main dealers and the questioned was answered by the one and only Ged
Christian, if your right about the 600ft Winnie the pooh and the blustery day i'd best hang onto my print, i did get this one some time ago but i never see it on the lists these days.
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 23, 2013, 12:38 PM:
 
Well I was quoting info from Dereks own editorial in the FFTC mag
# 30, which states that "Beauty & Beast" had the record of 200+
prints, which is a long way short of 1400 copies of "Dracula"
which Derek Simmonds said at the time "remains their best selling
film they ever issued".Remember these sales figures of late could
not possibly compete with the numbers of prints being sold when
the package movie market was in full swing.So I'm sorry lads
but I would say that you're out for "The Count", pardon the pun.In answer to Adrians query, it was our own Keith Wilton
that reported on the poor sales of "Fantastic Voyage",which
struck me as odd as it is a very colourful adventure, but obviously childrens films were more popular.
 

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Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on February 23, 2013, 01:46 PM:
 
I remember the '1400 prints' quote too.
'Scars' was advertised in Movie Maker for months before its release, Derek really hyped up the film at the time [@1974/5?] as the first big recent Hammer film on 8mm.I had a 4x400 colour version from the initial run.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 23, 2013, 01:49 PM:
 
Kind of funny that the topic has ended up becoming "what was the best seller"

therefore, (hee hee)

What were the numbers on STAR WARS? I know they MUST have sold numerous prints of that title!
 

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Posted by Oemer Yalinkilic (Member # 86) on February 23, 2013, 01:51 PM:
 
I think, some Disneys sold more.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 23, 2013, 04:03 PM:
 
OK guys, as Osi has noticed that the last postings are going to the opposite.

For those who are interested with that topic, we have several designated thread, Please post your opinion there:

Best Selling 400ft Digest

Best Selling Disney Feature

When we are talking about the success or failure of super 8mm prints, we have to stick with periodical time that what happen in 1970s must be different with 1990s. In 1990, the market has shrunken, therefore 400 copies in 1990 can be seen high compared to 1400 copies in 1970s.

Also we have to consider the length of footage will give different result. A 200' digest can be boring to death compared with its F/L or vice-verse. So that is the reason I limit the time and make two categories.

BTW, since I found in the middle of 1980s the market has also shrunken I have now widened the period to post 1985.

So can we get back to the track. What is your opinion for the most failure super 8mm prints post 1985?.

cheers
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 23, 2013, 06:26 PM:
 
Does this include the foreign markets Winbert as they made up quite a lot of the sales? The people who could throw light on
this subject would be the folk who staffed the distributors, as we
can only regurgitate the facts , figures from past periodicals.
Castle films must count their releases in the thousands, but who
would know the titles that didn't sell.The examples I have given
I know from the secondhand markets rarely if ever appear, and
from the comments made by Derek himself, makes one think they were not good sellers.perhaps the timing was wrong,being
too late.I had hoped for "Planet of the Apes", but didn't like to
ask.Also an important factor that really throws this thread, is the closure of the labs,it didn't matter if a particular film was
popular or not, because the prints were not available for sale,
hence the waiting time for prints just before DFS closed, that
must be considered.Coupled to the fact that in the UK, We have
been suffering recessions for years, so the monetary factor comes into the equation, do you pay the mortgage or buy that
print.So the title of a print not selling, has many variables.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 23, 2013, 10:37 PM:
 

quote:

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Does this include the foreign markets Winbert as they made up quite a lot of the sales?

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But after 1985 what "foreign market" we are going to talk. Practically, no other foreign companies left (afaik) except a German labs printed films for certain order.

This is the reason I limit the time.

If we are talking back in 8mm film heyday, it will be too difficult.
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 24, 2013, 03:25 AM:
 
Then even with the German's printing the odd film,they have to
be included and reinforces my point, that it could be the most popular film in the world, but if the lab facilities aren't there,it
renders the release meaningless.Bob Lane wouldn't have had the
success with "Star Wars" if video and DVD had been around and
the labs closing.The numbers of these prints sold in the final years
must be counted in single figures, and Germany is a good example, where films used to be sold in supermarkets & now
have disappeared altogether. I don't think we'll ever know the
true numbers sold to evaluate the prints that didn't.
 

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 24, 2013, 06:11 AM:
 
wow how did those boys at Derann get that wrong,well corrected Hugh,
The biggest failure is a hard one to think about, i was looking throuh some of the 8mm catalouges and so many titles come across as "why release this", what about some of the last Walton prints like Man in the Iron mask 3 x 400ft?
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 24, 2013, 10:46 AM:
 
Once again, the German Lab shouldn't be included, as they only print to demand and do not make prints willy nilly (OK, I like saying willy nilly), therefore to list them in this category wouldn't be accurate, as this topic deals with releases that were made, but didn't sell.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 24, 2013, 11:02 AM:
 
Osi is quite right. a lab print is made based on order.

What I want to see here that a company might have made a mistake when chosing a title. And from this discussion at least we know "End of the Days" is one of them. But you guys perhaps still have more input, I will appreciate.

Now to extend this discussion, suppose you see "End of the Days" listed on Ebay, on what starting price you will place your bid? What about GBP 99.9/$149? Going once, going twice...?
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 24, 2013, 11:28 AM:
 
Thanks Tom, trying to find which films didn't sell is like having a
game of cards with part of the deck missing.The info is very
limited as we don't know the whole story regarding collectors
and their collections, there must be thousands of people out
there that have never heard of this forum, but still have their films
including titles that were thought poor sellers. Until figures are
submitted from dealers of the past, we can only surmise among
ourselves with the odd title surfacing but no real proof of what
was sold,we don't know what was sold or in what quantities, coupled to the fact that in England, we were limited to one lab at Rank, which certainly didn't help.As for the film
"End of Days", myself I would rather have that than "Capt.America", and the waiting time for these prints are what
the big distributors had to contend with,which does have a bearing on sales.I have never had to wait for a print from DFS
because I didn't buy new prints after 2001.So we're chasing
our tails until facts & figures are present and that won't be anytime soon.
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 24, 2013, 01:23 PM:
 
Although I'd agree with Winbert that it makes sense to focus on British releases after 1985 as ones elsewhere are almost non-existent, there were a few releases in the second half of the 80s from one or two relatively obscure US distributors. I believe that one was Moorcraft who re-released some Thunderbird titles amongst other things. One example I have is an extremely rare one reel promo for 'Star Trek 4' (1986) that I obtained via the British company Dane Films, who offered some US imports that no one else in the UK seemed to have. It's video transferred to film and as I have never heard of another copy being sold since, I'd guess it was a low seller.

Considering that due to Derann the UK market was growing at the time, and this prompted companies such as CEC and Movieland to later produce their own releases, it's surprising that the revival didn't spark off more activity in the USA or Germany.
 

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Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on February 24, 2013, 04:59 PM:
 
This is a very interesting discussion.

I personally dont wish to bother anyone but there are people out there, some are members of this forum, who do know some facts and figures but havent published that information.

I think End of Days is a good contender but as Hugh says we can only guess until we have some figures. What we possibly do know is that Derann often printed in batches of 50 so there might be 50 copies of End of Days but no more.

I think we should leave Captain America out of this because many collectors (I believe) are buying this because its new super 8 and are not bothered about the title. They just want it to support new super 8 prints. When collectors were told a new digest would be printed I dont think many were saying "I hope its Captain America!!" This films sucess is a one off and dosent add to the debate.

Hey, why not make a request to the freedom of information

Graham S
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 24, 2013, 05:18 PM:
 
How about the digest (or feature) of "Hawk the Slayer" (is that going back too early.

Talk about a CRAPPY movie, even with the presence of Jack Palance. I had the digest from Derann at one time, (and Derann even released this as a feature?!!! Sorry Derann, love ya but ECHHH!)!

MUST have been a bad seller ...

... was it?
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 24, 2013, 05:22 PM:
 
I can recall LONE WOLF releasing "Special Effects" with Bryan Brown, and I'm not sure if the promised "Rockadoodle" ever made
it or "Physical Evidence" and "The Fourth Protocol".All were
going to be full feature releases the last time I spoke with Trevor.
The first feature I know did get released, as it has turned up on
used lists, but I feel it can't number many prints.
I think that Steve Osbourne is doing a sterling job in releasing
new material, it's just not to my taste,but there are plenty of folks that enjoy it, so more power to 'em.
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 24, 2013, 06:12 PM:
 
Hugh - Is the film you're referring to as 'Special Effects' actually 'FX - Murder By Illusion', which was released by CEC? I recall seeing Lone Wolf magazine ads mentioning 'Physical Evidence' but I'm unaware of physical evidence of prints existing!

Osi - I believe 'Hawk the Slayer' didn't do too badly. Derann were absolutely right to release it because after 'Raise the Titanic' and 'Who Dares Wins' they circulated a questionnaire, at least at an Open Day I went to, indicating various titles they could release (I think all were ITC or Rank) and invited collectors to indicate which they would buy. 'Hawk the Slayer' came first and was hence the next release! I know it's not a great film but I suspect several people - including me, as I voted for it - hadn't seen it but liked the idea of a sword and sorcery film on 8! But despite its faults, the film has something of a cult following (particularly in some European countries) and from around 2009 to 2011 there were concerted efforts made to get a sequel into production.
 

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 24, 2013, 07:48 PM:
 
That's the one Adrian,I knew there were effects in there somewhere.I still have the flyer somewhere from Trevor, where
he goes to great lengths in his description of these films,which
is a pity if they didn't make it."Hawk", I have a copy myself, I
didn't buy it,but was given a lot of film etc, and this was among
them.I have seen worse, and it does benefit from a "spaghetti
western" type score and Jack Palance!
Then there were the releases from MOVIELAND, which being a
small operation Roger Lilley couldn't compete with the larger
distributors, but he did acheive great quality.Like I said before,
unless we have actual numbers of prints struck, it's guesswork.
I know that I stopped buying new prints,mainly because it was
Disney stuff that was being done,and they aren't to my taste,
coupled to which there were better titles on 16mm.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 25, 2013, 04:26 AM:
 
The saddest thing I ever witnessed in 1980 was standing outside the Moviedrome shop in Kilburn and looking at an emptying shop window as they were closing down. They were formerly Collectors Club of course and a hotbed of film hunting for me then at a time when you could buy a feature for £55 and a 200ft sound short for £6.95 whereas Derann were charging £8.95 for a 200ftr for instance. Video was biting hard into the 8mm cake and for me watching Terry’s shop close was so sad.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 25, 2013, 01:04 PM:
 

quote:

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it's surprising that the revival didn't spark off more activity in the USA or Germany.

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