quote:

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It would be great if it could fall into the hands of someone who could make new prints!

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I think that opportunity never materialized Ernie, but no doubt the guys in the UK can fill us in on the details.
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 03, 2013, 12:56 PM:
 
From what I remember most of the equipment went for scrap and the negatives were destroyed.

Derann had most of the negatives under license and transferring them to another company would be messy.

The equipment was also quite worn and in many cases no longer working.

It was really neat a decade ago being able to request any film in their catalog and having a solid chance of finding one in stock!
 

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Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on September 03, 2013, 08:56 PM:
 
Well if it was run down etc then at least it wasn't great equipment that got wasted.

Thanks for the info.

What about releases between 2009-2011?
 

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Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on September 03, 2013, 09:31 PM:
 
The destruction of negatives always makes me cry.
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 03, 2013, 09:32 PM:
 
The equipment was the best of the best at one time, it just saw too many miles of film and the know-how and spare parts were getting thin.

Derann stopped printing new films somewhere in the 2009-2010 timeframe. They were having problems with their lab and we all hoped they'd find a new one and get going again, it just never happened. Another year down the road they went out of business entirely.

My take on it has always been that tthe availability of a whole catalog of new Super-8 sound prints in the year 2000 was incredible. By the end of the decade it was almost miraculous.
 

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Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 04, 2013, 04:07 AM:
 
One of the saddest things I read was a lab in the UK that had the negatives of Mancunion Films, and when the lab closed the negatives were destroyed, so now only worn TV prints exist.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on September 04, 2013, 05:06 AM:
 
The end of Derann was devastating news for die hard collectors of many years in most cases and the reasoning for closure was obvious. The hardest part was to hear the machinery was weighed in for scrap metal as we stood in a closing shop all a bit hard to get to grips with knowing the heavy investment Derek had made in gear as well. Similar again with the Perrys lab with young Ian and Arthur loading 8mm printing equipment in a skip although I know they wept doing it such is business.
Many collectors in the 90’s were selling up and moving onto Vid and years later regretted it and come back to film collecting later on which is good news.

[ September 05, 2013, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Lee Mannering ]
 

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 04, 2013, 05:23 AM:
 
I very rarely dealt with Derann by mail for second-hand films. It was very difficult to get through on the 'phone, and when you did "Sorry, that title is sold".

Their new prints were great but perhaps a little pricey.
 

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Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 04, 2013, 05:31 AM:
 
There was an interesting programme on Mancunion films some years ago on channel 4, where they interviewed ex workers. All very sad, I don't like to see the closure of any company or studio. The lab was wrong to destroy the prints, they must have known that they had some value, also, surprised that the BFI turned down films. I thought their job was to preserve our cinematic heritage.

Regarding George Formby, was that 'Off the Dole', I remember Derann used to sell copies in Standard 8mm. Has 'Boots ,Boots' been restored with the missing scenes with Betty Driver?
What would be a real coup is if you could find Formby's first film where he was a jockey.
 

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Posted by Barry Attwood (Member # 100) on September 04, 2013, 05:39 AM:
 
Sadly Derann were never the same company once Derek Simmonds died, he was the heart and soul of it all. I strongly believe if Derek was still alive today Derann would still be trading, and even perhaps running their own lab, but once he got ill, things went by the wayside. Their was no leadership from the top, Adrian the General Manager never got involved with 8mm, and I feel that was Derann's biggest mistake in later years, if you haven't got enthusaism from the top, then it was only time before the eventual demise.

I still miss talking to Derek, he was a lovely man, who helped me out in my early years of Independent 8.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on September 04, 2013, 06:03 AM:
 
Here here about Derek Barry and I’ve told my story many times how he telephoned me after purchasing my first Derann title well over 40 years ago..OUCH!

Yes Robert the proggy was Mancunian Presents from 1993 and you can still view on the tube. Dan Young is my own Mancunian film hero and I’ve followed him for years locating autographed pictures etc as you do once hooked on something. Pleased also to report he is on two Derann super 8 releases ‘Ukelele Man’ and ‘Off the Dole’ feature which although slightly abridged is a nice slice of northern film history. Formby’s first talkie was ‘Boots Boots’ which is now available on DVD more or less complete as is OTD and its worth getting hold of the DVD ‘Funny up north’ which is a fun and informative view. Formbs ‘By the shortest of heads’ silent film did turn up in the early 1970’s as I got to see 1 reel of it on a hand cranked projector although no idea where it is now all these years on, remember I was a young boy then. Derek at Derann was a keen Formb fan and even today I’m sure he would put a short out if something interesting was put in front of him.
 

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Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 04, 2013, 06:18 AM:
 
I bought all the Formby shorts in the early days of collecting, also the features 'No Limit' and 'Spare a Copper'. I hope the Formby silent film is in good hands as it was considered a 'Lost film'
As you would know Lee, George's brother lived in a suburb of Oxford. Do you like the Frank Randle films?
 

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Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on September 04, 2013, 06:55 AM:
 
Recently read an article about one of the labs that had gone out of business think it was Humphries Film Labs. They had some films and they were arguing about who owned them.

I'll try to find the article and post here.

On the Derann negs, wouldn't think that the stuff they bought from the likes of DCR, Walton, Powell, etc would have been any problem, it would be the newer stuff Fox, Disney.

Barry has hit the nail right on the head. Derek WAS Derann
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 04, 2013, 08:01 AM:
 
I think basically all that survived the end of Derann were the new prints (mostly a good number of trailers and one reelers) that were unsold on the last day. I believe what happened to them remains a complete mystery, but it was clear that they didn't want to clear them out by selling them off cheaply that day, so someone must have had something in mind.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with Maurice with regard to their prints being a little pricey, at least in strict economic terms. I was told by staff members that towards the end, Film Labs North were printing at close to cost price, as keeping prices down meant more business and helped keep the staff employed for a bit longer. Note how prices have shot up since everything has been printed at the German lab.

[ September 04, 2013, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]
 

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Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 04, 2013, 08:08 AM:
 
Adrian, even if someone doesn't make a large profit on something it can still be pricy. It doesn't mean that it doesn't worth it but that you cannot afford to buy a lot of it. I bought from Derann but it was not cheap.
 

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 04, 2013, 10:51 AM:
 
I will never forget my visit to Derann about 18 years ago. The shelves were stocked high with brand new super 8 feature prints, and Gary and Jed were busy screening prints and preparing them for shipment. Derek gave me a tour of the business, including the screening room and the sound striping and recording machines. It was obvious that Derek loved what he was doing and he had tremendous pride in his business. Derann were the best of the best, and their legacy is the thousands of superb quality prints still in use throughout the world.
 

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 04, 2013, 12:53 PM:
 
Dominique - fair enough, but on that basis I would say that you would probably have to define every non-discounted release in the history of 8mm as pricey, so we may as well just say that it's an expensive hobby if you regularly buy new product!
 

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Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on September 04, 2013, 01:30 PM:
 
That last Derann Open Day in September 2011 was the last day of trading for this great company. I remember Ged saying that even the trusty coffee maker had blown up on the morning of the event....even it knew! I went along and caught it on Super 8 film...I hope to show this at the 2014 Blackpool meal. However, there was a large skip outside and it was clear that most of the useless rubbish had be thrown out. There weren't really very many bargains that day, and I think those who went along thinking everything would be £5 were sadly mistaken. Ged said that the scrap man had taken the stripers and splitters etc...but a few months before, these had seized up through lack of use and they were struggling to find a technician who knew how to repair these. All vey sad.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on September 04, 2013, 01:32 PM:
 
I don’t think it is an expensive hobby particularly if compared to some others enthusiasts do. Bearing in mind our interest is one where once you have obtained a film you can watch it again and again pretty much for free and your whole setup does not need to be top end to entertain yourself or others. The new releases we have seen following on from the Derann days have been really welcome by film show people (I resisted showmen as we have many girls projecting now) with collectable trailers such as Ed Wood and the excellent Super 8 which had proved popular. Make no mistake the people who market new prints today do it for the love of it rather than any notion of profit and in latter years Derann were also in that bracket I’m guessing. I know whenever I hold a new super 8 film in my hand for cleaning prior to its first screening it is sure some moment these days and memorable.

Well Robert do I like Frank Randle? Here is your answer..


I regularly replenish the flowers on his grave amongst the other variety stars that were top billing in entertainments golden years and the anarchic humour which Frank popularised.
 

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Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 04, 2013, 01:41 PM:
 
Adrian, I think it is expensive when you buy new items (and I do it, I buy new filmstock to shoot). I am not saying it is overpriced but you cannot say it is cheap. As Lee says, if you compare with other hobbies it is not the most expensive one but you need to invest some money.
 

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Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on September 04, 2013, 01:45 PM:
 
My experience has been that collecting 16mm is expensive if one wants good original prints. Super-8 is much more affordable.
 

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Posted by Mark L Barton (Member # 1512) on September 04, 2013, 02:39 PM:
 
Not sure if this is pertinent but recently I travelled to an a auction house in Dudley, near the High Street, west midlands and bought a sizeable amount of super 8 projectors, inc an elmo gs1200 that had several PAT test stickers on it plus the addition of a knurled knob into the front of the lamp housing moulding, strange. The Eumig projectors l bought all add little orange printed price stickers, so were obviously at some point were on a shelf and for sale, in a shop, perhaps in Dudley. Now do you think I bought some old Derann stock?
 

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Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 04, 2013, 02:49 PM:
 
if you did, you will probably not regret it.
 

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 04, 2013, 05:03 PM:
 
speaking as a common workin bloke on an average wage of less than 20G film colleccting is or should i say can be,very expensive, i was one who after a conversation to Derann at the end was told to come to the last day as films will be ridiculously cheap, iwas tempted but now pleased i didnt make that trip as a few people have said the films were not sold off cheaply after all,
now then, this may not go down to well but,-- in the super 8 collectors world there is a fair few well off people,(& if i may so, very good on them,wish i had more etc etc) so collecting those big titles of extreme costs is quite easy, for the average man in the street it is an expensive hobby, we have been very lucky over the years and some of our big titles just happen to come up on lists at reasonable prices and we happen to have got lucky on the Monday morning when i rang for the titles i found on the latest list, waiting over the weekend to ring in at 9am Monday seem to last an eternity,
Collectors today, by comparison, can buy films at excellent prices that are way cheaper than in the past by purchasing films from the last remaining dealers, Perrys, Indi 8, Classic home cinema and paul Foster. ive recently obtained some short reels and cartoons at great prices, its e-bay,(and im guilty on this one to) thats making the hobby way out of reach with good features fetching hundruds, even over a thousand £ for films that should just not be at these prices, yes its supply and demand but only the well off will be able to buy at outragous prices. If Derann was still in buisness second hand films would be lower prices as they did keep the prices stable via the monthly lists, Unfortunatly it was only Derek who could negotiate with the big film companies, when he died it was, as we all know, the beginning of the end of Super 8 as we knew it. He lived for it. It was also Derek who bought expensive films within reach to the average earner by allowing the cost to be spread over six months, this was someting we took advantage of more than once, but after all this is said i still get quite worked up waiting for my second hsnd film to drop through the door. No other hobby i have makes the same excitment , and if i buy a film on dvd or blu ray i know there only worth peanuts and when i get it home i watch it as and when i can be bothered, many only get viewed once and now you can buy top movies in car boot sales and flea markets for £1, now thats a cheap hobby but you know what? im sticking with my cine for as many years as i possibly can no matter what. For those who say it isnt an expensive hobby i can only wish i had your bank balances because when i see someone on here say they have a title for sale cost £300, or £400 i have to think, "i cant justify spending that on a movie," nor could i afford it with a mortage and family, but within minuites someone will be on to snap it up. Well thats the way the world works i guess,lets be honest, i anyone won the lottery tomorrow im sure they would never give a monkees about the price of a film again, you would just buy no matter what.
blimy, did i go off subject a bit here
 

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 04, 2013, 05:16 PM:
 
Tom, when I started into 9.5mm film collecting in the 1950's I had to restrict myself to a little hand cranked Pathe Ace projector and a few 60ft shorts. A 'Real projector' like the Pathescope GEM, was totally out of reach for me. As for sound films forget it, the Pathe Son projector was six weeks wages and the sound feature films cost the earth. People who could buy a 16mm sound projector in that period must have been very well off indeed.
So it always has been an expensive hobby. But I think a good argument can be made that film collecting, particularly Super 8 film collecting, is now more affordable than it has ever been.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on September 05, 2013, 03:20 AM:
 
Mark. A few weeks back now there was a box of 8mm sound films including some features at £3 a reel on our local market. I resisted buying in the hope some younger blood would buy this bargain lot and get into the hobby locally.

Paul. The purchase tax rate in the 50’s here in the UK was astronomical I’m told after the war making many goods a no go area for prospective customers. In today’s money a Pathescope Son sound projector would be about £2000 as a rough guide and not such a desirable projector as far a reliability goes.

Re new releases I’m hoping that one day Barry at Ind 8 who is notably enthusiastic about super 8 may himself release a new super 8 trailer or perhaps short via his web site, or perhaps pose the question will anyone commit to such a project. I also miss Perry’s who had its own lab and if a film was not in stock you would be told over the phone when they where next printing that title.

Tom. It doesnt have to be an expensive hobby if we cut our cloth accordingly. The trouble starts when we exceed what we should be spending on goodies that perhaps we should have passed over. 99.9% of films for instance are second or 30th hand by now and although a title may be desirable it extremely likely they actual film will have seen some misuse reducing its value greatly. That’s my guiding rod anyway.
Happy days and stock up on the pies for winter!
 

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 05, 2013, 03:34 AM:
 
Tom made some very interesting comments.

Derann's habit of sending out their list at the end of the week and making us all 'phone at 9am on Mondays (if we could get through.)

The inflated prices on eBay. The buyers who pay these prices may not be aware of our reasonably priced dealers. Those who bid appear to be willing to go to any price just so that they get an item. But it might not be worth it.

Just as there is Alcoholics Anonymous, so there should be an Association for over the top eBay buyers.
 

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Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on September 05, 2013, 04:18 AM:
 
Your correct about ebay biding, I just don't understand the prices people pay.

One of my other hobbies is 00 model railways, some stuff sells for more than the new price from some other dealers.

Still miss Derann.

Had a happy hour last Saturday though, was in Cleethorpes. Guess where? Its a kind of paradise. Model railways in the front, and in the backroom FILM and more FILMS.

Phil told me he has some new releases due soon. One at the lab now. a Pathe Pictorial newsreel with the opening of the ABC Cinema in Sheffield 1962/63. I will properly buy this title.

[ September 05, 2013, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: David Ollerearnshaw ]
 

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Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 05, 2013, 05:10 AM:
 
When I started collecting super8 in the early 70s it took me 7 weeks just to buy a feature from the Mountain catalogue. I could only afford to put £5 away each week, I also wanted to shoot my own films as well.

After a long break I got back into cine and currently only collect 16mm. Dominique is right about it being an expensive hobby, especially for someone on a low income. I bought a roll of Wittnerchrome 16mm reversal, which is actually Fuji stock, after paying tax, postage, and processing, it cost me about £100 for 4 minutes of film at 16 f.p.s.
 

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Posted by Mark L Barton (Member # 1512) on September 05, 2013, 05:37 AM:
 
I agree with Tom. I'm in the hobby on a budget. Yep I've lots of films, inc features and not one of them is exceptionally mint. I'm happy to buy a film even if the colour has shifted because it will be sold cheap but it means I have a copy on celluloid. We know that DVDs and Blu Rays copies of film titles are produced in their millions yet super 8, even in its heyday, print runs were no more than a few thousand, I understand that the biggest print run was for star wars 400' col/snd at around 20k prints worldwide (please amend if I am wrong) Therefore there perhaps is say only a few hundred prints left of this version, so even owning a colour shifted copy means we are actively doing what we sometimes forget in our hobby, that is archiving film..celluloid. As such we are not hobbyists but archivists protecting celluloid in all its formats and variants.
So I say not be aghast if you cannot justify the expenditure on a mint super 8 feature but celebrate the fact that the £5 you paid for the 400' Superman with colour shift is just as important!
Cheers to all you fellow archivists of film.
 

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Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on September 05, 2013, 06:07 AM:
 
Interesting to read what people feel on the price thing. Mind you its a bit like the British scooter scene where some will pay 8K for a 50 year old scooter with a smart paint job which looks pretty but under the covers its a wreck.
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 05, 2013, 09:40 AM:
 
Yes, I have a classic car I've mothballed (for now) to keep the budget but I've always been able to enjoy collecting films averaging about what I spend every month getting coffee at work!

You spend wisely, and you learn to appreciate what you have more. Here and there you splurge a little.

I haven't bought a print since June. It seems to me that the pickings have been pretty poor these last few weeks. Anyone else?
 

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 05, 2013, 04:38 PM:
 
I do of course agree that our hobby, like, any is what you make it. Between my Brother and i we do have quite a reasonable sized collection and 90% were purchased second hand, oddly enough we have returned more prints as faulty when we purchased new than our second ones. We have budgets and as has already been said we can and must purchase within our limits, unfortunatly the price of new releases now will always be out of my reach apart from shorts and trailers, having said that do i really want to invest £20-£30 for two minutes of film entertainment, Captain America looks amazing and the reviews are very good but again, as much as i want a copy i really cannot justify over £200,(please correct me if i am wrong on the price) for just 30 minuits of a movie especially when you think what you can buy on the lists of perrys,indi,P Foster and CHC. I saved Deranns last list on my PC and read through it tonight, why did i not buy a lot more than i did?
We are going to try very hard to attend Ealing this year but we are wondering, with Derann no longer around and Paul Foster no longer in attendance at thes venues what will it be like,
We'v had an expensive year so far with two visits to guys hospital, money we were keeping for Ealing, with it possibly being the last it will be interesting to meet so many of you especially with so many from over seas, now this takes me nicely onto what we talked about earlier, is it a rich persons hobby??? well, if these were held outside the UK i for one most certainly wouldnt be able to even think about attending unless the venue happened to be somewhere we were going on holidays,
but bearing in mind we are now into 2013 and super 8 films are still being released it just goes to show how wrong so many people were in recent years about the staying power of 8mm, i think Derek will be very pleased as he looks down,or up
 

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Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on September 05, 2013, 05:15 PM:
 
The absence of Derann has not detracted at all from the BFCC, I can confirm, and Paul is always there, though he doesn't have a stall.
 

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