8mm Forum: Elmo GS 1200 two blade or...

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Posted by Jose Artiles (Member # 471) on February 05, 2015, 07:42 AM:

Last day i start thinking to upgrade my gs 1200 to a two blade shutter but after see a video of the elmo gs HTI i start to think to keep the three blade shutter and make an upgrade to HTI lamp...what do you think is the better option folks?

Thanks!!!

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on February 05, 2015, 12:58 PM:

Jose, an Elmo gs1200 HTI?, tell me more. They made a xenon gs1200,is this what you mean. It was fitted with a 250 watt arc lamp, two blade shutter. If you get the Elmo f1.0 lens, fit a two blade shutter and get the correct lamp, the standard GS is much brighter by a fair bit on the standard machine. Type in the search engine to find all the info on this subject, quite a bit on this.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 05, 2015, 01:59 PM:

John Clancy has a GS1200 HTI, which they use for the BFCC shows on a 25ft screen! [Eek!]

Yes, as Paul has stated, the standard GS1200, fitted with a 2-blade shutter is much brighter than the standard 3-blade. In fact, I have found that the GS 2 blade switched to the low lamp setting is as bright as the GS 3-Blade switched to the high lamp setting. Then if you also use the Elmo F1.0 lens, and the new Fuji 200watt ESC lamp ( not the 200watt EJL), you have a very bright projector indeed.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 05, 2015, 02:19 PM:

If I had a HTI projector, I too would want an adjustable shutter. It seems pointless to me to upgrade the brightness by obtaining a Xenon or HTI machine without first having a really fast lens fitted as well as a shutter that allows maximum light onto the screen.

Posted by Jose Artiles (Member # 471) on February 05, 2015, 02:47 PM:

Thanks to everyone for all the information on this matter,the case is that i use to make film shows for the Ministry of Culture and cinematography in some of the building that they own,they have a large theatre inside with a big screen,about 32 feet, and i was thinking to upgrade the gs for showing some derann super 8 films from the projection boot that is about 49 feet away from the screen,maybe is a better option and more cheap to upgrade the lens to 1.0 and a two blade shutter...

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on February 05, 2015, 02:51 PM:

The last HTI upgrades I've seen on GS1200s required some extra space inside the machine and one of the speakers had to go. I guess this is Ok if you're only using the projector with external speakers or hooked to a home theatre system. The HTI lamp is cheaper to replace than the xenon bulb. However, I'm not sure it will last as long.
Be aware that a 2-blade shutter will create flickering at 18fps (providing you screen silent films).

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 05, 2015, 03:18 PM:

That is why, to me at least, Jean·Marc, the adjustable 2 / 3 bladed shutters are the best. Then you can flick between the two different modes depending on whether or not you are screening your own amateur footage or package films.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 05, 2015, 04:34 PM:

Absolutely Andrew, and it makes you wonder why other high end projectors, such as the GS1200 (which is loaded down with bells and whistles ), did not have the switchable shutters, which is such a desirable feature.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 05, 2015, 04:55 PM:

As ever Paul, I couldn't agree with you more. I was only wondering the same thing as I was writing the post!
You would have thought if anyone would have put this in their machines first, it surely would have been either Elmo or Eumig given their pioneering nature.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 07, 2015, 01:00 AM:

I wish that practically all my projectors had an adjustable shutter! But perhaps the lack of them partly reflects challenges in making ones that work reliably. I think I saw an adjustable one offered in Germany for the GS, but I considered is useless because you need to take off the back and do various things to reach it to adjust it - that's too much bother for most people. The perfect solution has to be a shutter which automatically adjusts itself according to the speed, but I expect anyone producing replacement two-bladed shutters considers this far too difficult to make. I know that one or two Bauer P series 16mm projectors had these but does anyone know of others?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 07, 2015, 04:21 AM:

On the Beaulieu, it is easy to do : you remove the lamp, unscrew (with your fingers) a round screw and just made one of the three blades slide. In a few seconds, your three blades shutter is converted to a two blades one.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 07, 2015, 04:33 AM:

FFR have now manufactured a similar concept for Bauer Studio Class projectors 510, 525, 610 etc.
You have to send the projector to Germany to allow them to fit it but once they have, it is seemingly as easy to change from 3 to 2
As the Beaulieu 708el cd Stereo.

It is worthy of note that not all 708's have this type of variable shutter,
The early mono and twin track models, have a regular 3 blade fixed shutter.

[ February 07, 2015, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on February 07, 2015, 04:25 PM:

I'm very glad I added the 2 blade shutter on my GS. I use the Fuji lamps, and have a high gain paint on my screens, as well. My lens is the 1.1, but for my purposes, I have an awesome image, both flat and Scope.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 07, 2015, 06:01 PM:

It's seems that FFR also offer that for some Elmo models.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 07, 2015, 06:07 PM:

True Dominique, but as Adrian points out, it is not so easy to access the shutter on the Elmo as it is on Bauer and Beaulieu projectors so it almost seems pointless. On the Elmo's you would have to remove the rear cover every time you wanted a speed change therefore a shutter change would become necessary.

I guess that is why most of the conversions on Elmo machines tend to be to a fixed 2 bladed shutter, but this then renders them useless for anything other than 24fps projection.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 07, 2015, 06:45 PM:

I didn't think of that, Andrew. If it takes too long to change, the benefit may not worth the effort.

Posted by Jason Gronn (Member # 3921) on February 08, 2015, 12:23 AM:

I just purchased a two blade shutter for my GS1200 after Steve O telling me about the light difference, but I think I will find someone out here to instal it as I'm not to confident on doing it myself as it looks like a hell of a job.
Having said that I'm also now the proud owner of a GS xenon and I think my standard GS will now go into semi retirement.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 08, 2015, 04:13 AM:

You must have a far superior salery than I Jason if you can afford to run your Xenon for every film that you ever show! Ha Ha [Wink]

BTW Jason, having done a little work on a friend of mine's GS1200 in and around the shutter area, I don't think it's too difficult to remove the shutter shaft and therefore transfer it to a two bladed.

It has after all only a short stubby shutter shaft as it has separate drive motors for all the other transport tasks on the machine.

This is unlike many other Super 8 machines which have the shutter shaft driving all of the entire projector mechanisms.
Others who have done the job will be able to confirm my suspicions hopefully.

[ February 08, 2015, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 08, 2015, 12:27 PM:

I converted both of my GS1200'S to 2-Blade shutters. I did not find the job overly difficult, but it is time consuming, and you have to work slowly and carefully, and the use of the GS1200 service manual is essential, with all the exploded views showing how everything is assembled and disassembled. The best advice I can give is to use magnetic tools, which will save you losing small screws and washers down into the innards of the machine, and take plenty of photos as you go. As you disassemble, lay all the parts in their appropriate assembly groupings in individual trays. The 're-phasing' of the 2-blade shutter is not too difficult. You just have to make slight adjustments to the shutter position orientation on the shaft so as to get no ghosting of the image on the screen. It's a trial and error thing, as you zero in on the correct position.
It took me about 6 hours to do my GS conversions, and you definately want to take the opportunity to thoroughly clean all the parts as you go, and lubricate the gears and cam.
In the USA, Leon Norris offers the 2-blade conversion service. His new number is 610-272-3205. Leon was an Elmo Technician, and he has the experience and the parts to do this job.
I would highly recommend the 2-blade conversion on the GS. The difference in brightness and whiteness of the light on the screen is very noticeable indeed.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 08, 2015, 12:34 PM:

Very sound advice indeed there from Paul, but a word of warning.
Only use the magnetic tools or instruments close to mechanical parts and fasteners only. Go anywhere near certain electronic components, magnetic heads or VU meters etc with them and you can do a lot of damage!

Now as general rule of thumb,if there is an electronic component within an inch of the magnetic tool I am using, I simply don't use it through some bad experiences in the early days.Otherwise they are an extremely helpful device as is my mandatory magnetic tray whenever doing work on projectors.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 08, 2015, 02:28 PM:

Good point Andrew, and you also don't want magnetic tools too close to the rewind motors on the GS, which are permanent magnet motors that love to grab a magnetic screwdriver! [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 08, 2015, 02:35 PM:

I've always had to learn the hard way Paul! Ha ha [Big Grin]

At least this way, you never do the silly things again.

Posted by Jason Gronn (Member # 3921) on February 08, 2015, 06:41 PM:

Thanks for the advice lads.
I will print out the service manual and give it a go myself as l can only learn from it all l guess at the end of the day.

Andrew, l think the xenon will be more of a novilty for a while being a new toy and will use it for features only. l would say once the two blade is installed l will use that for my everyday screening of shorts etc but l am lucky to have a job that allows me to treat myself every now and then. [Big Grin]

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