This is topic The Mighty GS1200 in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 18, 2015, 03:07 AM:
Well its been a while since I last ran the GS but the other night I ran some film. The funny thing it took a while to warm up and get up to speed before threading probably getting a bit tired like me.
I have had this projector for just over 30 years and its done really well.
The big improvement was converting it to a two bladed shutter something I made myself. But full credit to that conversion must go to Kevin and Paul, who with encouragement and expertise convinced me to give it a go.
Its nice to run a selection of shorts...bet you lot cant pick the film from this last screen shot.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2015, 03:18 AM:
Superb set up Graham!
You surprise me that your GS took a while to achieve full speed as it is an electronic DC driven machine?
I have not experienced this with any machines other than AC driven machines. Is your shutter belt healthy Graham?
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 18, 2015, 04:00 AM:
Graham, was it diificult to replace the shutter ? I thought of doing that on one of my Elmo (I have no GS 1200, I have a st 180, a GS 800 and a ST 1200) but the shutter seems to be a little bit difficult to access. The trouble is that a two bladed shutter is perfect for projections at 24 fps as it increases the light output but males flickering at 18 fps. I don't want to spend one hour to dismantle the projector each time I wish to project a film at 18 fps.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2015, 04:06 AM:
If you need these machines for both speeds Dominique, as we have spoken before, there is no variable shutter possibility on the Elmo machines due to lack of front access.
You would have to keep these machines purely for package films if you want the two bladed option.
You have the Beaulieu Stereo if you want the best of both worlds I suppose, plus there is a variable 2/3 adjustable shutter available for the Bauer Studio line machines if that is a route you may wish to consider.
People like Graham and Paul Adsett have changed their own shutters and I remember reading Paul's comments regarding this work.
I don't believe he reported it as being too big a deal, however some of the original factory fitted screws fitted to the Elmo's can be ridiculously tight to undo and are quite soft metal which can easily be rounded.
Basically, you get only one chance to undo so no slipping of the screwdriver and decent correct fitting tips are essential I would say.
I think Paul had to do a little tweaking after assembly to get the absolute perfect shutter blade angle.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 18, 2015, 04:20 AM:
Andrew, I have a variable shutter on my Beaulieu and I have a 1.0 lens for my Elmo projectors so it would juste have been plus. I didn't know there was a variable shutter for the Bauer. I should check on my projector (you never know) and if it is not such a shutter I will try to find one. No emergency or "real" need, just always in search of improving the projectors.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2015, 05:38 AM:
The Bauer machines don't come with this "Beaulieu" style shutter Dominique, they are an exclusive add on product from FFR Filmtechnik.
You can either send them the machine and they will exchange your original to a variable or in some cases I believe they will send you the parts to fit yourself.
130 Euros for a straight 2 Bladed shutter, 160 Euros for a 2/3 variable type.
Price includes fitting but obviously courier costs are extra and it is extremely expensive from the UK as well as being somewhat risky due to the wonderful handling of our precious goods here in the UK!
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=bauer&language=de
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 18, 2015, 05:53 AM:
Thank you, Andrew. From what I understand they only convert the projector if you send it to them. I will put that on my Christmas list :-)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2015, 06:16 AM:
Though I do know of a person who had one sent to him as he lived outside of Europe.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 18, 2015, 06:48 AM:
Maybe they make exceptions if the shipping is too difficult or too pricey.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2015, 10:50 AM:
Indeed. Anyhow hopefully Graham will be able tell you more regarding the GS1200 shutter conversion later this evening Dominique.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 18, 2015, 06:07 PM:
Dominique
You are right that the two bladed is for 24fps only. I did try projecting at 18fps to see what it was like...not nice...the projector is strictly 24fps.
Top dismantle the GS1200 is quite straight forward. The topic regarding that conversion I did, is back in the 8mm forum somewhere.
The shutter itself is real easy to make, a couple of hours work from old bits of 16mm projector. Timing the shutter to the claw takes the time, but once set, that's it for life..it will never move ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Was it worth the trouble?... yes well worth it, at a guess around 25% more light than the standard three bladed. Pulling the projector apart also gives you the chance to give things a proper clean and fresh lube as well.
The other night the projector speed was a bit slow to start with due to it being winter "sitting for a while" and everything cold. Like any machine even 35mm a few minutes to warm up a bit before threading. When I worked in the cinema, first thing in the morning when I arrived I would run the projectors close to a good 5 minutes before threading.
Dominique projectors are a bit like us...both need to do a bit of exercise first thing in the morning ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
What really surprised me about pulling the GS1200 apart and putting it back together again was that everything ran great...and much to my relief ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 18, 2015, 06:41 PM:
Thank you, Graham ! I will have to decide if I dedicate one of my Elmo to 24fps only projections or if I keep them as they are. By the way, Graham, have you also tried a 18 fps projection on a large screen from a long distance ? I read that the flickering disappears in that specific projection way.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 19, 2015, 02:18 AM:
Hi Dominique
I have never tried that, but what I did find at 18fps is the flickering shows up a lot more if the scene "on the screen" is light... say the sky...darker scenes don't show it as much, but any switch from dark to light, you will notice it. I still have our old 18fps home movies and use another projector for watching them.
The GS1200 shutter blade would be a lot easier to convert than say the ST1200, which although it can be done has a different type of shutter altogether.
I wonder if anyone here has converted a ST1200 to a two bladed and if so share there thoughts?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 19, 2015, 03:08 AM:
Dominique, if you would like some idea of what to expect the flickering to look like at 18fps using a 2 bladed shutter,
Simply try experimenting with different films and distances using your Beaulieu in this mode on fixed speed setting.
It will be close to what you'd expect to see from the converted GS with a 2BS.
Bear in mind, if anything, the image from the Beaulieu will be slightly more forgiving, just as I know for sure it is at 24fps 2BS mode, because of its uniquely fast pull down claw and longer dwell angle.
I have read on here in the past, people who have converted their St1200 to a fixed 2BS type. The results apparently were very good, but again 18fps mode was useless so in some cases they removed part of the mechanical switch mechanism as it could only ever be then used as a 24fps machine.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 19, 2015, 06:06 AM:
Thanks for the enlightening replies
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 19, 2015, 07:20 AM:
Always a pleasure Dominique thanks.
Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on August 19, 2015, 08:41 AM:
I was also curious about changing the Shutter on my GS-800. I had bought a 2 blade shutter for my projector a while back but I started to take it apart to change and got stumped. It seemed like it should be pretty straight forward and it got to the point where I loosened the set screws on the shutter bushing and it seemed like it should just slid off the shaft (towards the rear of the projector). However, it wouldn't. Do they take a bit of prying/pulling to come of the shaft?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 19, 2015, 10:30 AM:
I have no idea on the GS 800 Zech, I've never owned one. Hopefully someone here will be able to advise you.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 19, 2015, 10:38 AM:
So everybody here had to know that you don't know?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 19, 2015, 01:52 PM:
No, quite right Steve, not at all...but hopefully in keeping the post alive and saying what I said, I was just hoping someone will be able to help Zech out, that's all.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 19, 2015, 02:32 PM:
Well, While you're taking on all these responsibilities don't neglect spinning the Earth as well, we're all counting on you!
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 19, 2015, 02:42 PM:
Zech, if you got those little grub screws out they tend to leave a little burr in the shaft, you will need some soft nose pliers to grip this and then gently twist the shutter blade side to side and pulling gently towards the off position, they can be a pain to get off, but not impossible. I use a small needle file to remove the burr on the shaft to stop it dragging on the new blade.
Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on August 20, 2015, 06:33 PM:
Thanks Paul. I'll pull it back out and give it another try. I'm interested to see how much brighter it is.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on August 21, 2015, 12:31 AM:
Zechariah, I believe Kev over in the UK did the GS800 2 Bladed Shutter a while back. You may want to reach out to him. He's a very good technician and he's helped me numerous times to count. He said the light output was much better. Pair that with a nice 1.1 or 1.0 lens and you have a mini GS1200 Killer! Well maybe not Killer but you get the idea..
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 21, 2015, 03:19 AM:
For you chaps that have done these shutter conversion, i reckon Phil of CHC would love a full step by step description of this for the magazine, it could be done over a couple of issues unles Phil was able to dedicate 2-4 pages.
This is the sort of thing he's looking for.
In fact, Andrew, where are?
I think the way i did my Elmo techy bits for the old mag would be a great idea for you to do as small series, i.e., service tips small repair tips, what's available parts wise, & with yours and other peoples experience with Bauers as well as other machines, i believe your experience would be a very welcome addition to our magazine. Unfortunately, i dont really want to do repeat runs of my past items,(& i dont think anyone would want to read them again as they already have it in FFTC), but yours and chaps like you Graham and others on here would be more than welcome, & it will also make Phil a very happy chappy.
What do you say?
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 21, 2015, 11:43 AM:
The increase in brightness when using a 2 blade shutter on the GS1200 is very noticeable indeed. IMO the brightness of the GS with a 2 blade on the low lamp setting is about the same as a GS with a 3 blade on the high setting. I am very glad that I converted both my GS's to two blades. I just use my Eumig 810 if I need to show films at 18fps, which is not very often at all.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 21, 2015, 12:10 PM:
I don't use my ST-1200 for 18 FPS, so I'd be interested in the two blade conversion.
I would imagine that would involve a whole new shutter wheel assembly since even though the wheel and shutter are two pieces, the wheel screws onto the shutter at three locations and now two of them wouldn't have a blade under them anymore.
It would have to be made pretty rigid since it is now a lot more "aperture" than "blade". Otherwise it could get noisy.
-of course this would just have to come only a few months after I restored the rubber wheel surface!
Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on August 21, 2015, 12:13 PM:
I would be interested on this conversion on my ST1200 as well if it could bring it 25% more light... but I am more nervous and would wait until you tried first Steve
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 21, 2015, 12:17 PM:
Just so hard to cut into a healthy machine like that!
My last great ST-1200 surgery followed a major meltdown.
-if I failed I'd at least have the comfort that it was circling the drain anyway!
"Where did your silver projector go?"
"Well,...I did the best I could..."
(The Service was very touching, and it's gone to a better place.)
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 21, 2015, 12:50 PM:
I'm not sure the ST 1200 can be converted. Following Wittner's site, the two blades shutters are for GS 1200, ST 180, ST 600, GS 800 but they added two words that following a tranlator could be something like "models alike". So, does the ST 1200 fall in that category (and then why not list it clearly ?) ?
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 21, 2015, 12:57 PM:
It's not an ELMO, but my old EUMIG 926, when I haven't run it in a little while, will have that sluggish start as well, but I'm pretty sure that it's all gears in the back and not belts.
Hmmmm, I just thought it was old age. Well, heck, probably nearly all of our beloved projectors are getting near needing a "walker" just to get around, (and probably some of us too, eh? )
Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on August 21, 2015, 02:23 PM:
Hi Osi
so whats' your point - Elmo shutter wise?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2015, 02:41 PM:
The ST1200 can and has been converted before now to a 2 bladed shutter Dominique.
It differs only from any other shutter in that it is a wheel as opposed to a set of open blades.
It maybe would require a "beefier" peripheral ring with a thicker wall thickness to remain perfectly concentric whilst still having the ability to support the outer ring using two blades instead of three.
In a few places on this forum I have certainly read posts from a bye gone era of people who have successfully done this work. I haven't been able to find any examples from the archive so far but hopefully I will by delving deeper.
I remember reading whoever was the last to write about this work that by the finish, they preferred the PJ to their GS 1200.
I think that was a mag/opt HD model with a f1 lens upgrade.
It may also have had a 250w lamp upgrade also if I remember correctly.
Tom, in response to your earlier request within this post, I think the projector reviews are a great idea for Phil's mag but unsure whether or not there would be sufficient interested parties to dissect even the most common of the repairs on any machines other than the ST1200 or the GS1200.
I don't believe there are too many out there who try and carry out repairs on the other models. They tend to be sent to a specialist like Kevin Brown if the machine is suitably valued by its owner or alternatively thrown away and a new one purchased as they can typically be replaced for a few hundred pounds unlike a GS1200.
It would be interesting to find out first just how many people still regularly use a Bauer Studio line model, let alone those also that purchase Phil's magazine.
Then we could assess if the instructions would interest enough purchasers of the magazine.
[ August 21, 2015, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 21, 2015, 04:09 PM:
So, Andrew, from your message it appears that the shutter available from Wittner would not be suitable for a ST 1200. That's a good point to know.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2015, 04:21 PM:
No definitely not Dominique using the clutch/ rubber drive wheel arrangement that it comes with as standard.
If you can fit a direct drive from the motor to the shutter shaft using a correctly sized pulley and drive belt, then quite possibly.
Doing away with the clutch mechanism on these would actually be an improvement if the direct drive method was engineered well and the motor had sufficient torque to drive the projectors mechanism to full speed from standstill.
To be fair, all the direct belt driven mechanisms I have come across on 8mm projectors all tend to be D.C. motor driven but it's not impossible I guess.
Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on August 21, 2015, 07:13 PM:
I run both 18 and 24fps, so I'm happy with the 3 blade shutter in my GS1200...I think the light output at 15 feet from lens to screen is fine...
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 29, 2015, 04:48 PM:
I come back to this discussion because I had to open my Bauer T 502 for some reason and I noticed that the shutter has a variable blades positions possibility. It remains a three blade shutter but the blades can be enlarge. What would be the point of doing that ? I haven't the manual of this projector and never felt the need before but now I'm curious.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 29, 2015, 11:58 PM:
I think you may just have what they all have there Dominique, the standard arrangement on your 3 blade shutter.
If it is as standard, it provides a slighter larger 3 blade shutter in reverse as it does in forward by having extra pieces to the 3 bladed shutter that ordinarily in forward projection mode, sit behind the main 3 shutter blades.
In reverse, due to centrifugal force the extra sections swing out from behind the main 3 and give a larger shutter covering surface area and thus, a duller image in reverse.
This mechanism is to eliminate ghosting of the image in reverse that you would otherwise get due to the speed of the pull down down claw.
Once again, I thank Maurizio for explaining this one some time ago on here.
If it isn't like the way I've described and it has a thumbwheel on the shutter, then it may well have had a 2/3 earlier conversion.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 30, 2015, 02:25 AM:
Thank you Andrew (and Maurizio !). I would never have guessed that. I have the standard original shutter, it remains a three bladed one even if you move the blades. I personnally very seldom project films in reverse this system is useless for me. I suppose when you convert your machine to a 2/3 blades shutter you looose that.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 30, 2015, 04:27 AM:
if you were to fit a variable shutter into the Bauer, when left in 3 blade shutter mode, you could use the projector in reverse in the same way you can now.
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