8mm Forum: New Toy T610, a Disaster

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 05, 2015, 01:04 PM:

Remember me and my new toy, the most expensive investment i made into my hobby? How pleased i was?
Well, i wont go into the long story but track 2 did not work. All i got from the switch was a lot of horrible noise.Also, there was some sort of bubble or chip within the 1:1 lens, the very thing that was put on the machine to persuade the sale. By pure luck i decided to watch a stereo film, Beauty and the Beast. It was during projection i realised that compared to what i was getting out of my 1200HD the sound was crap.Track two was not working.
I got hold of the company who paid for its return for repair. No drama's, very good in fact.
After two weeks i was told, "we know what it is, the pin is broken at the base of the slide switch, so they were going to replace it and also the circuit board, the lens they were looking in to.
Guess what, it came back Friday, i was over the moon, i immediately plugged it in, fired it up and first noticed the lens was the same, then guess what, no sound on track two. AGAIN. I was fuming. especially as there email said "good news, the Bauer is 100% BUT, the track 2 on super 8 films is never very good, and the way the head picks up the sound via the stereo amp the volume will always be weak.
Yeah right.
Anyway, the company have agreed a full refund thank goodness, and never again will i venture into the realms of plastic projectors.
It was a lovely looking machine, well designed and unbelievably quite running, in my case, very quite, but here is a laugh for you all, i was today asked by them, and i quote, copied and pasted,
"you mentioned you have a Elmo 1200 HD in your possession that you use for stereo sound right? Is it possible that your films are optical sound instead of magnetic? This would be a possibility why track 2 does not work.
We have checked the Bauer thoroughly here before it went to you since we wanted for you to have a perfectly working machine, and here track 2 worked perfect". [Big Grin]

I am not being mean here but i dont think i would send any of my equipment to them for repair again. Although there actual customer service is very good and very polite,also prompt. If they were in business to sell broken projectors they'd be top of the league [Big Grin]

. (cruel but effective)
Anyway, take a look at this Scilly thing i put together to show my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McKQf2OhbCw

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on October 05, 2015, 01:47 PM:

Bad experience, Tom ! It doesn't mean, though that Bauer are not good. Someone else could come accross a faulty Elmo and a perfectly working Bauer...

Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on October 05, 2015, 02:13 PM:

Hi Tom

that must be a real one-off...I have never had anything but the best experience of Bauer back in the day 83 - 86 and also models I purchased through the whole range back in the early 2000's. I think that now it's all about "vintage" cars, etc. You have been very unlucky...but no excuse for the price you paid.

[Frown]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 05, 2015, 02:31 PM:

I do think its just my luck and possibly the repairs people not really knowing what's wrong. There is no way it was working 100% when it was first sent to me, then again a second time, they state it was 100% perfect, funny how its the same thing both times.
I agree with both comments on here but unfortunately i get a bit mad when people say Elmo's are not good, as you say it is a matter of opinion. This machine was the most expense i have paid into my hobby in one go in over 30 years and its the worst experience also.
I do like the machine, it is very nice, great light output and the most quite running i have seen but after all this i simply cannot trust this model again. I see other threads on here with sound problems but for me i will stick to the two i know best, Elmo and Eumig. Elmo do seem to have the best in sound output.
I'm not slating the Bauer, its just the experience of spending so much money, it arrived with a fault, it went back and came back with the same fault and there was no explanation about the lens which is also the same.
I am the wrong collector to be asked if i was trying to put through an optical film.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 05, 2015, 06:30 PM:

You were indeed Tom, somewhat patronized on that optical sound question, there is no denying that of a collector with your experience.Though I doubt this was intended.

Equally Tom, Dominique, Mark and just about anyone you speak to will tell you the same, on this occasion you have just been very very unlucky. You perhaps never had the opportunity from the limited time you had your machine to see the full benefits of these over the long run.

Equally one thing that is very apparent having followed your venture from beginning to end, is that it is clear that even when the amplifier fault wasn't playing up so to speak, you had a wear issue to the balance side of your main head.

Who knows with these swapped over, a couple of dry joints re soldered...you may have been delighted with the machine.(with a new lens provided of course)

To gain the kind of sound output you were both expecting and looking for, on these, you really need to be using external matched 4 ohm speakers.

This way your internal amplifier will produce its maximum output to the speakers and will give you a much fuller soundstage.

The internal speakers on these, and indeed most machines are really only fitted just for monitoring purposes.
They are even described as such in the instruction manuals.

Equally they are very good when slaved out to an external amplifier via the 5 pin din.

Ultimately nothing lost, you got a full no quibble refund which is very good service in this day and age on a machine this age.
You have been inconvenienced so to that end you have my sincere sympathy and now it's time for you to be able to look forward to a new purchase and hopefully one which will cause you far less hassle when parting with your hard earned next time. [Wink]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 06, 2015, 01:53 AM:

Very true, have to say i did love how quite it ran,that was quite something.
Onwards & upwards now though, no new machines for a while, i will keep hold of what we have and get down to the business of watching films [Wink]

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on October 06, 2015, 02:18 AM:

Tom
The link doesn't seem to work but can you tell us the name of the company you dealt with so that we can avoid a similar experience.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on October 06, 2015, 03:43 AM:

That does suck Tom. I work for an electronics company and I am their customer service rep. I have seen situations where we have repaired an item, have it passed our tech tests (oscilloscopes, check all functions, etc.), and then the item is tested by my team before we send the item back to the customer.
And then the customer receives the item and it doesn't work! When this happens we have to get the item back to us and if its under warranty we just replace the item. If its out of warranty we then do our best to suss out the problem. If the unit has an intermittent problem that is the hardest to find as sometimes the problem only happens when the unit has been on for a while or under certain conditions.
I hope that you get the problem sorted. For the amount you paid if the unit is not in tip top shape you should get a refund. I have a Bauer T610 I purchased for around $150 US . It came with the 1.2 lens, and it was missing the gate but after all was sorted I have a perfectly running Bauer T610. They are great machines but I think we all feel your pain at having laid out so much money for a faulty item.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 06, 2015, 04:04 AM:

Even with the part you had missing (which I know you were subsequently able to find!) You got yourself a real bargain there Rik.

Most private sales of these, with of course no comeback of any kind, generally fetch around the £200 to £300 Mark here in Europe for one that appears decent.

Usually they all have one fault or another at this price range but they can often quite easily be made good if you know a bit about them.

The most frequent faults on these, as on lots of different machines, generally resurface over and over again.
Once you've fixed one, you can do the same to all.

As said on many occasions previously, the Achilles heel on these at one time was if the shutter cam had worn itself out, it was extremely difficult to be able to find parts.

This thankfully, is now no longer the case. Everything else is generally speaking a set up issue or electronic fault.

For the reassuring price Tom paid, you would expect the machine both to run perfectly and also have very little wear to either of the two main magnetic heads fitted to the machine.

If both these required replacing, it costs £500 just for these alone.

These in the UK by the end of projector sales as we knew them, commanded a price of around £650. At the time the GS 1200 price had lowered slightly and could therefore be purchased for around £100 more.
A decent MK3 GS1200 with little use to the plastic guides etc, in this day and age would still bring a price point of around £850 I'd say for a very good one if indeed one like I'm describing even still exists.

I think it's the same story with these. If you want one that has experienced hardly any use, with as new heads and shutter cam etc, you would first struggle to find one and secondly, if you did, I think you could expect to pay £500 upwards for one.

If someone has bothered to purchase even one replacement head for the machine, they will have paid at least £250 out in today's money to do so. They therefore are never going to sell it for the "average" used price for one of these.

I know I certainly wouldn't anyhow.

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on October 07, 2015, 02:35 PM:

very bad luck Tom. we all have different experiences. i have a 502 and t60,they cost £50 each,and appart from some hum,they are perfect. i agree they seem plasticky after the elmo"s,but i just cant trust elmo again after two st1200"s put green scratches on half my film collection. i still curse every time i watch these films with the pairs of green marks,one above the other.
i suppose i was just unlucky as well.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 02:59 PM:

Its unusual that they put a green scratch in your films, was this the GS or the ST? We have have 3 of these machines for well over 30 years, apart from a couple of films having had a small black line on the very far right we Havant had this problem. I usually clean the m out twice a year by taking out the guides, any wear on that rear one i replace it. We have 6 left which should see us out.They are extremal sturdy, good light output, and very reliable, easy to get the film out at any point and easy access to the film path, & from our own experiences once the shutter mod has been done and belts all sorted they just go on and on, the sound output of the Elmo is the best i have heard considering how cheap you pick up these now.
I must say though I think if another T610 came up for sale for under 300 and i could see it working and knew some history i think i would like to try again. I dont think they are worth more than that. In my opinion of course.
My only beef here is that i find it hard to believe that both times it was 100% working before it was sent yet the same fault was there both times, as per my you tube video. Also the lens was not sorted, the same one came back. Anyway, a refund has been offered and i will say there communication is excellent and the fact they were sad that it didn't work and a refund offer is a good outcome.
I now need to sell the electric kit i bought for it and the pilot lamp bulb There no good to me. [Wink]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 07, 2015, 03:01 PM:

Tom

I like your video, pity about the Bauer, it does look like a nice projector. I wonder if the stereo sound head is making proper contact with the film. Its a pity they claim to have fixed it when its obvious they did not [Frown]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 03:12 PM:

Quite annoying as you say, i will say,(although my rants probably say different), it was a lovely looking machine, very stylish in design and how quite it runs is unreal, you forget there's a projector in the room.
Maybe one day i will find another. I just fancied a good stereo projector.
I think for me the Bauer, (now i have used one), would be high maintenance, Yes you can buy new heads but at £250 a go,(and there's two of them), you may as well buy another projector. They do also use a lot of plastic within the cam and claw/framing mechanism giving it the quite run but these would wear with use i give them and i dont want to be forever replacing and repairing. I want a projector to show films.
I think i have been spoilt with the Elmo's, Bill Parsons has done a couple of bits for me but apart from a little care and general servicing they just go on and on. You can hear the sound on that video on track 2. That isn't a one off because of that film either, we only have around 10 stereo films and they all play back with this quality and volume on track 2 on the 1200HDs.
The Bauer Vs The Elmo? They are both good machines and they both have advantages over each other and i'm positive there are other stereo machines out there equally as good. One of the most important things to me aside reliability and light output is the sound, you dont hear any hum on an Elmo.
It was not meant to be i guess. [Frown]

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on October 07, 2015, 03:14 PM:

both the elmos that did the pairs of green scratches were st1200 models. i had in the past about 5 other of these and none scratched. i like the performance of the elmos very much,and they look and feel like a projector should! But i just cant trust them again. if it had been one machine,maybe,but two!!
thats my experience. in every other way,i was an elmo fan.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 03:18 PM:

Thats a shame David, we had a similar experience many years ago, we took our Eumig 810D LUX back under warranty for the umpteenth time to our local shop. We kicked off a bit because we really were fed up with it coming back with same fault,to tie us over they gave us a brand new Bell & Howell filmosonic sound projector.
Took it home and i put through a brand new print 400 ft of Texas Chainsaw, it was the first time of projecting it. It went through perfect, looked good.
The following night we put it through again and there was a massive green tram-line right down the middle. We were fuming and the shop did not care less.We have never touched B&H again since.Only a 16mm which they were best at.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 03:19 PM:

Probably not Graham, the balance side of the head wears far quicker than the far wider main. This is as almost all stereo heads do.

David. What about the lower loop, tiny capstan issues causing excessive wow and the dancer issues causing huge speed irregularities, it really isn't just the fact that these scratch to me, although this irregularity is in itself unforgivable to me personally.

Where the scratching is concerned, I think all too much depends on whether or not the top feed shoe rollers still turn, once they don't that's it I'm afraid.

The tortuous path the film takes from start to take up reel leaves me amazed of why many don't see the same.

for all those that trust these implicitly, try playing a 200ft film backwards and forwards 3 times only from beginning to end and I'd be interested to see screen shots of the 4th run screening.

I will video this acid test from a Bauer or Beaulieu any day of the week as many times as you like, will others do the same from an Elmo ST 1200?

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on October 07, 2015, 03:27 PM:

i suppose another thing is that i dont have any stereo films and i do put up with some hum,which can be anoying if the track is recorded low.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 03:32 PM:

I really don't find the hum effects the track once playing, only when the machine is in standby, then i turn the volume to zero until threaded.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 03:36 PM:

Quite a few films i put on had audible hum on them where on the Elmo they belted out the sound with no hum, i'm wondering now if both tracks were faulty then?
Quick question, i forgot this,
On the Elmo when i finish a film as lights go up you can turn the bulb off,i often do this as the lights are switched on and the last of the sound is playing on the film, on the Bauer there was no on/off bulb switch so to turn the bulb off so you dont see the tail leader flashing i needed to switch to the first position were you then get the rattle noise of threading? Was that correct or was i doing something wrong?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 03:40 PM:

There is no separate run / lamp switch on these, just as there isn't on hardly any other machine than the Elmo Tom but other than that I'm not too sure what you mean Tom?

You thread it, switch it to run,the lamp comes on, the projector goes quiet and the film is where ever the film is,... dependant on the amount of leader on the particular film.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 03:44 PM:

Its awkward to explain,
If the film is coming to an end the titles are rolling up, on the Elmo i can still keep it all going and just turn the bulb off, the machine still runs in normal mode with all sound going, the projector still sounds normal,
If i turned the Bauer to the first position after the titles have rolled, (so the only thing going through the machine is tail end) it made the rattle of a film being threaded. They run quite once you switch to the run position. In other words the bulb stays on until you turn back to threading position, in which case if you turn it to switch the bulb off you get that threading rattle sound, does that make sense? [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 03:52 PM:

Yes Tom, I understand what you mean now. No is the answer unless you place a lens cap over the lens after the end credits.

By putting it in thread after the film is laced, it is potentially harming both your film and your projectors mechanism using one of these, or a 938/40 or a Beaulieu or just about any other super 8 mm projector I can instantly think of.

The Elmo is quite unique with this separate lamp / motor switch function, probably due to the diffuser which can be temperamental as we know.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 03:56 PM:

oh right. Thats another downer for me.
What problems do the diffusers cause?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 03:57 PM:

They stick in the up position occasionally and burn the frame unless you get to that lamp switch before turning the motor off.

trouble is...you never know the first time the diffuser will decide to stick.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 04:02 PM:

Oh i have seen that on here, again that's all down to possibly lack of service, some people tamper with the linkage mechanism, if people use the wrong lube it can gundge up and jam it, or a lack over the years of oiling that linkage. The Service manual shows the lube areas on these.
We have been blessed with our three that none of these have ever stuck,
Generally speaking if i pause the film its always good practise to switch the bulb off first. I never see any need to stop a film with the bulb burning, very bad practice.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 04:19 PM:

Yeah I know Tom, leave the film till the end etc etc , but the fact that it can, means at some point, no matter who or how often or where it is serviced is concerned, means it will at some point, Might take years but guaranteed, at some point down the line ...you will experience it, I promise.

[ October 08, 2015, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 04:30 PM:

bet we dont [Big Grin]

But i do bet if i gets another bauer it'l have a sound fault or need a framing mod or claw cam [Big Grin]

(only joshing)

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 04:34 PM:

I know I won't get many taking on my "Acid" test, that's for sure Tom! Not if they value their 200ft Gold anyhow!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on October 07, 2015, 04:36 PM:

What I find surprising here is that the seller said he repaired and the trouble remained. There may be three cases : 1) The seller received the projector, didn't do anything and sent it back, saying it was fixed 2) The seller fixed the projector but the trouble came back 3) The problem occurs from time to time and is not permanent. We will probably never know. All I know is that I have some projectors that had some faults that were not visible all the time (sometimes it happened only once or twice during a 1200 ft/ 360 mt projection. On other occasions, I had a problem that came, disppeared, came again. Last year, I brought a projector for a repair and strangely when the repairman tried, another fault came out (although I was careful during the transport, I guess it happened then) and I had to explain the "original" trouble otherwise it would probably have been hidden by the other new trouble. Wathever happened with Tom's projector, the good side of the story is that he got a refund.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 04:40 PM:

And me Elmos are happy again, they knew they wouldn't be shelved for long. [Big Grin]

(all in good fun chaps)

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 04:42 PM:

Absolutely Dominique. Brilliant that in 2015, you can both sample, send back, and then send back again a 30yr old Super 8mm projector and obtain a full refund!!

This is unprecedented service from a 30yr old machine in 2015 I can assure you!

Dry joints are the number one issue of any electronic projector issues suffering from intermittent faults in this day and age.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 04:46 PM:

Very true but then the goods were not fit for purpose so they had no choice. No way was i having it fixed again and the faulty lens was not fixed nor did they answer me when i told them it was the same. They avoided the lens problem all together, the same lens was still in the projector when it was sent back to me.
Neither of the faults wer dry joints.
Certainly not the lens anyway [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 07, 2015, 04:57 PM:

How do you know Tom what the faults were, and indeed what they were not?

The lens situation for you would have been better had the original original F1.2 been left in place by the sounds of things.It's still an excellent lens.

[ October 08, 2015, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 07, 2015, 05:09 PM:

Well, i didn't know that's why it went back to the "the experts" under the warranty.i dont think they knew either by looks of it, do you recall that video you saw when the switch made that awful noise, well, when it went back they said the bottom of the switch was broken so they were going to replace it and the board, i think they did that and assumed that was all the fault was. Switched it on, no film, pushed the slider up and down, heard the hum going up and down and assumed that was it, no more horrible noise but also no film sound either.Just my assumption, it came back still with no track two sound.It was superbly packaged so it wasnt done in the post. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 08, 2015, 02:47 AM:

No Tom, I agree that there has been no damage in transit.

When Bill Parsons helped repair an intermittent fault on one of my projectors amplifier boards, he couldn't simulate the fault in over 40hours of using it himself!

He went over the board and the machine in general, he repaired another minor niggle regarding a damaged electrolytic beneath a VU meter and sent it back to me.

I ran it for a few days here and there...no problems at all. I ran it for another week after that...all continued to work fine again but then suddenly.. gone.
No sound on either track one or track two without using headphones or slaving out to an external amplifier.

So off it went again, this time to a nearer electronics specialist of equipment from a bye gone era.

Within (I kid you not) half an hour of having the back of the machine, I know because I was there witnessing him doing it, he was phoning me up to say he thinks he found the fault! I'd only just made it back through the door from dropping it off and explaining the problem and then watching him start the job by removing the rear cover!!!
The difference here being the fault was present at that very moment and testing was made simple as there was a breakdown in the 32v supply voltage that could be seen easily using a test meter at the psu stage.

Anyhow he went around tidying a few things up that weren't necessarily faulty but looked suspect in the connection department and he applied new heat sink paste to my main STK chipset before reseating it.

Wind the clock on nearly two years later and here we are. Not missed a beat ever since.

So the point of all this story telling is just this, if Bill Parsons can sometimes not be able to rectify a dry joint problem just because at the time the fault won't rear its ugly head, there is a good chance I'd say that anyone else could find themselves in exactly the same position irrespective of skill level, any amount of testing etc etc.

It probably shouldn't have been sent out to you quite so hastily in the first place without going through a 20 point check say, where both sides of the track are tested for both playback and recording before dispatching. This is among many other basic tests on these like testing the microprocessor works as it should etc etc.

The service manual for these even outlines the tests or checks that should be carried out before dispatch after any type of service work.

But if an intermittent fault does not show at the time, there is little that anyone can do or predict before putting it into service and then letting time and useage take its course in the manner Van Eck did with your unit Tom.

The switch you describe I have no doubt from listening to it, needed repairing or better still replacing,but clearly that isn't the only issue here. Maybe it might take a full section of the board to be re soldered before all connections are sound once again.
Maybe it needs a component change out.
We will just never know, but equally we will never know what it wasn't and this fault on this machine has all the characteristics of the one described above. So it cannot be ruled out I'd say.

....................................................................................................................................................................................
Bill has the excellent practice of sending out to you a disc showing the machine fully working when it leaves his workshop.
In this day and age with the relative ease of sending a short piece of video footage anywhere around the globe, perhaps this practice could be mimicked by all repair personnel to avoid later disappointments and future transportation costs/ risks.

[ October 08, 2015, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 08, 2015, 03:38 PM:

well, the old buggers gone back today, tonight I put the godfather 2 through the old Elmo, incidentally, I never mentioned this, I notice quite a few of the forum chaps left the hobby for a while, I think you said you were out for 20 years Andrew,(didn't you miss that home cinema [Wink]

?) before returning?
I myself have never left the hobby and have now used my main Elmo for 33 years, (I bought it when I was 20), and a week has not gone by where it hasn't been used, very often for 2-3 hours at a time at least three or four times a week, that's a pretty good record of reliability I reckon.
Without trying to make myself sound Scilly, can you really say that the T610 or any other Bauer could do that with the same sounds heads,(not losing any quality in those years), cam and framing mechanism? [Wink]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 08, 2015, 04:09 PM:

What I don't get is the idea that Elmos inevitably will start to scratch films. I can see somebody saying this about a machine that is six months old and will pass its expiration date at three or five years, but in a lot of places in the world these machines are old enough to have grandkids!

When is this inevitable going to happen? 45 years, 50 years?

Is there anything I can do the prevent it? Quit smoking? Eat more vegetables?

If you told me I was sure to have a heart attack ten years from now I'd sure want to know why and what to do about it!

(-make it 40 years and I will sleep soundly every night!)

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 08, 2015, 04:29 PM:

Steve, that's exactly right, look how many films are sold with lines, splices,creases and green lines, they weren't caused by all Elmo's, no they were the crappy projectors, the cheap trash that many people bought over the 70s and 80s, boots and dixon specials, Royal and so on, people who had an average projector and never cleaned the gates & film paths, I know Elmo's are not the be all and end all but i reckon there are more of those out there than any other make.
Here is my record in a nutshell.
over 33 years of Elmo ST1200HDs. (and Eumigs), I still have them all, they have all had the shutter mod, my own manufactured 24fps clutch wheel and rubber, Each one has had the Bill Parsons treatment once and my main one has been used as i said previously, and they are all still going, no rattles, and i know out of over 350 odd films maybe 4 have caught that black line to the far right. Since i made that discovery i replaced the green guide under the second sprocket.It hasn't returned again, but i do clean everything very thoroughly, i have also many films with a few black lines that i know my Elmo's would never make in 50 years.
Having now owned a projector that admittedly never marks a film is great but not if it doesn't work properly or has heads that wear fast or will require a claw cam or framing mechanism which is hours of work to do, if you can do it.
My Elmo's,Having served me well for all these years, i think i will allow them to continue their great service without me having to keep fixing something. [Wink]

Films with a few marks here and there is something we have never been worried about, its film, they are old. Most of our collection is scratch free but the ones we have were never marked by our own machines other than the four with a single black line to the very far right.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 08, 2015, 05:04 PM:

To Tom,
I've never been without home cinema Tom in one capacity or another since 75. (Year not age! Ha ha)

I did what a lot did back in the mid to late 90's and sold it all lock stock and barrel to Derann and purchased a Sharp XV Z1E privately as soon as I could for £1500 used!!

It was noisier than xenon had a whopping 500tv lines res and an even more staggering 400 ansi lumens brightness!!

I was in my element! Didn't matter that the image looked like I was watching it through a tennis racket. Didn't matter that the Dolby Digital had to take the roof off the house before it would drown out the incredible 747 style fan noise!

Anyhow, wind the clock forward some 10 to 15 years, and here we are again. It's all gone full circle for me.

I still have a very good modern video projector which gives me incredible images in this era given how well the technology has progressed.
But this time with the cine equipment I now own and the films I have luckily acquired, there can be no going back.
At least I hope not!

I now have the kind of things I could of only ever dreamed of last time around in the hobby pre internet days. If I had had the standard of equipment and array of films then, that I have now, I doubt even then ,no matter how good the technology had evolved, would I have swapped old for new.

Onto Steve's witty comments:))

You and Tom are two of THE most fortunate ST 1200 owners that I know of. Tom's had his collection of these for 30 years and has only minimal damage to his films and you Steve have an even more successful marriage with ST1200!

For me personally, it never ever worked out sadly.
I couldn't do the things I need a projector to do for me.
From the five I've had, I have kept the only one where the front feed shoe rollers still turn and are the good old fashioned original type that were the
metal silver coloured kind.

Even with this, my most trusted of any I've had, the wow from it borders on the ridiculous, it will very very occasionally misbehave and set about putting a lovely smiley face shaped emulsion Mark somewhere on the tiny frame and beyond that short of keeping it in laboratory, I cannot do any more than I've done to keep the thing as good as it can be electrically as well as mechanically while applying surgical levels of hygiene to the film path.

All I can say is so far I've had no takers for the 200ft "acid" test on video. Maybe you'll be the first to put it to the test Steve...until the first green line appears!

[Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 08, 2015, 05:36 PM:

I've had my ST-1200 only about five years: I doubt it was brand new before then (seriously), but what about Tom?

He's been using his steadily almost since Elvis (really) left the building.

When is the inevitable going to happen and what's been preventing it so far?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 08, 2015, 11:38 PM:

The difference between Tom's machines and most everyone else's is they don't have the original green guides in them Steve.

As you say Steve, with your reference to Elvis, Tom has been in this hobby continually for a very long time.

So long in fact, he can remember when original spare parts were available to purchase and he bought quite a few of them. They've also been serviced by Bill Parsons which always helps as Bill is an expert on Elmo machines due to the sheer number he has had sent to him over the years.

There are many GS1200s that go on for many years without scratching films to begin with. Even better with the metal feed shoe and some people have won the battle completely by modifying quite a few guides with extra rollers etc.

Nevertheless by design both are littered with film path design flaws. Not small ones, very big ones.
As I keep saying, both these machines, just like any other, come with a reverse projection function.
It's a function that if you use the projector as originally intended to add sound to your home produced films, you need to use this function a fair amount.

It is amazing just how many projectors don't do this with care to your film because of errors in the design relating to the film path. It isn't just Elmo BTW but what I will also say is, I don't know of anyone who uses either of these two machines that is comfortable with projecting their treasured films both forwards AND in reverse with these.

Most would rather unthread the machine by hand half way through a print if they have to rather than place it even for minute in reverse.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 09, 2015, 01:57 AM:

I must admit, i cant remember ever reversing a film in any projector for any reason [Confused]

Although of course if recording soundtracks then of course, but generally I've never been into that, way too time consuming.
I know the results can be quite spectacular especially with pulse syncs like that used on the GS 1200 which makes things a whole lot easier but I've never got into it. I'd prefer these days to get super sound to just get into DVD/BLU-RAY projection because there is no way on earth the analogue sound of a stripe will compare to a digital format via a modern amp.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 09, 2015, 02:32 AM:

Hello everyone.

The bottom line here is that Super 8 is a fairly fragile guage when compared to 16mm & 35mm hence more care and correct servicing will always be required if (as we all do) you want to enjoy screening a print without causing it permanent damage.

The original designs of projectors all varied to such an extent that in one way or another they all had strengths and weaknesses.

The important bit though is, here we are 40 odd years on and the machines are still working, Super 8 is still being projected, and there are individuals and companies out there providing technical help and spares solutions to keep us going.

I'm happy with my Super 8 'line up' of Elmos, Fumeo & Visacustics, Tom is happy with his Elmos and Eumigs, Andrew with his Bauers & Beauileu, etc. etc. which we have all serviced / modded and made as film damage proof as possible.

Perhaps it is best now to move on and celebrate the positives instead of constant reminders of any negative cine experiences?

Kevin

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 09, 2015, 04:09 AM:

I agree [Smile]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 09, 2015, 06:27 AM:

[Wink]

I am onwards and upwards now, back to normal. [Big Grin]

Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on October 09, 2015, 12:30 PM:

Kevin is so right in what he says. There is no such thing as the perfect projector. I would only add that the advent of self threading machines requiring extra guides etc have increased the tendency to damage film because:- a. They are more difficult to keep clean. b. Suffered abuse by ignorant people who never bother to read instructions properly and believe all they have to do is poke the end of the film in the slot and the machine does it all for them!! c. No model of a machine will be identical in every respect. I reckon we ought to meet up Kevin, as we appear to have so much in common!! Ken Finch. [Smile]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 09, 2015, 12:36 PM:

ere ere [Big Grin]

I'm hap hap happy.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 09, 2015, 03:39 PM:

Both Kevin & Tom are great guys Ken. [Wink]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 09, 2015, 03:42 PM:

[Wink]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on October 09, 2015, 04:41 PM:

ELMO ELMO ELMO ELMO ELMO ELMO ELMO ELMO

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 09, 2015, 04:43 PM:

And so is Paul for that matter [Wink]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 10, 2015, 12:19 PM:

Good boy Paul [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on October 10, 2015, 01:46 PM:

You've had your projectors so long now Tom there part of the family, and more to the point mate, you use them on a weekly basis and I believe this makes a huge difference to any machine regardless if its a projector or anything else, keeping the works moving over this long time can only be good for it, your story proves this.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 10, 2015, 04:42 PM:

It does help to use your equipment regularly.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 11, 2015, 05:04 AM:

100% accurate Paul.Especially the rubber components, they simply begin to rot, oil becomes gel and so on,anything mechanical needs to be used. I do rotate all our projectors to ensure they are used several times year, i have my main one which is used as mentioned.
A good example is my 16mm Eki NT1. We haven't touched it since 2008. As soon as i took it a couple weeks ago to get it all ready for selling etc it wouldn't turn the spools, all the belts were knackard, i replaced them, cleaned it right through,oiled or greased it and now its 100% again although i notice there is a little jump now and again when viewing, but yes protectors need using, cleaning and servicing. If its never serviced it will wear out the same a car would if it misses servicing. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 11, 2015, 05:12 AM:

Not so much " wear out "Tom, more a case of seize up mechanically. Also certain electronic components need regular use to keep them working and healthy like capacitors for example.

Anything made of metal in a mechanism, likes regular lubrication running by it and regular movement.
A little like the way we all do! [Smile]

An interesting point regarding large industrial equipment held in storage, is that much of it has a clock dial placed on the shaft ends of the main drive shaft.
It often has 12 sections split into the months of the year in the manner an analogue clock has,with the numbers one to twelve equally spaced.
Then on some part of the casing is an arrow or pointer,pointing to the months of the year sectors.
Each month the shaft is expected to be manually rotated by 30 degrees just to avoid "flats" forming on the bearings and to rotate the lubricant around the internal bearing components somewhat.

[ October 11, 2015, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on October 11, 2015, 12:44 PM:

Exactly, Hence why i always rotate my projecotrs, (except the 16mm) [Wink]

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