8mm Forum: Help for Elmo projector

This is topic Help for Elmo projector in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010528

Posted by Antoine Orsero (Member # 41) on February 28, 2016, 07:28 AM:

Hi,.

What is the difference on the quality of projection for an ELMO GS100 and St 1200, between an Elmo 1.0 lens zoom 12.5-30mm and a schneider-kreuznach MC xenovar 1.1/11-30?
What is the best of both?

Thank you very much

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 28, 2016, 08:59 AM:

The GS 1200 f1. 0 lens is the fastest and is therefore hailed as the fastest and brightest zoom lens you can fit to these machines. It is apparently a fantastically sharp lens but due to short depth of field, incredibly difficult to keep in focus.
It also isn't helped by the fact the GS focussing mechanism isn't the most precise either.

The Schneider Xenovaron f1.1 lens is an extremely well made piece of glass that gives very bright sharp images even if not potentially as bright and as sharp as the f1.0 Elmo lens in theory.

The difference is the Schneider lens is far easier to keep in focus on any projector and even more so when used on a Beaulieu due to the wonderfully precise micrometer style focussing adjusting mechanism used on these projectors.Therefore a wonderful compromise if indeed a compromise at all.

People like Alan Rik here are the best to speak to ultimately regarding the merits from each as he owns and uses both on different machines.
I am relaying some of what I have heard here from Alan himself, and others here, and can vouch wholeheartedly to the quality and subsequent image obtainable from the highly reliable Schneider Xenovaron lens.

Posted by Antoine Orsero (Member # 41) on February 28, 2016, 12:21 PM:

Van Eck sells an adapter to install a schneider-kreuznach MC xenovar 1.1/11-30 on an Elmo GS or ST1200 and on Ebay there is a Schneider who is for sale. I believe that the latter is a larger image than ELMO 12.5 - 30 mm.
In addition my Elmo zoom seems to have the lens as dirty inside what makes the less good image.
What do you think?
Thank you very much

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 28, 2016, 01:06 PM:

A 11-30 will indeed give you a larger picture than a 12,5-30. The difference will not be so high but if you have a short distance between your projector and your screen that may be taken in account. However if you have enough room, keep in mind that with a zoom lens you will in theory obtain a better picture on the small position of the zoom.

Posted by Antoine Orsero (Member # 41) on February 28, 2016, 01:23 PM:

Thanks for your replies. But I wonder still if my idea is good! You have not convinced me

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 28, 2016, 02:17 PM:

I would always go for the 1.1, much easier to keep in focus but still with more than enough light output. [Wink]

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 28, 2016, 04:35 PM:

Ah yes.. the debate on these 2 lenses! Well I have found the quality of the lenses vary from lens to lens. I had on my GS1200 a few 1.0 lenses and they were a little bit harder to focus initially but once they were focused they didn't drift so that was a non issue. The problem was that the quality of the previous 1.0 lenses I had wasn't that great.
Then I was able to find a 1.1 Schneider but the ones that were designed specifically for the Elmo line so no adaptor was needed. The first thing I noticed was the bigger image due to the 11 mm vs. the 12.5. But the 2nd was the color on the Schneider lens was cooler due to the bluish coating on the lens vs. the yellowish coating on the Elmo. So my whites were whiter and the image looked cleaner and the colors seems to pop more.
Almost as bright as the 1.0 and really much much better than the Elmo 1.1.
Sharpness was very good. I kept this combo on my GS1200 Halogen for years.
Then I got a GS Xenon and around the same time I found a boxed 1.0 lens.
I tried the Xenon with the Schneider and it was great. But then I tried the new 1.0 lens and it was really a marvel. Since it was xenon already the whites were just as white as the Schneider but this lens was incredibly sharp from corner to corner. I tested the machine with the SMPTE test film and I was correct. The image was truly sharp from corner to corner at almost all zoom settings. Even at the 12.5 settings. The schneider was very sharp but at 11, even at 12.5 it wasn't as sharp as the Elmo 1.0.
I could see the corners were slightly off no matter how many times I kept mounting the lens in the projector. It was this way on both the Halogen and the Xenon. Just not quite as sharp across the frame as the 1.0. In the end I sold the Schneider 1.1. If I had not found this 1.0 I would have kept the Schneider.
So-If you can find the 1.0 Elmo and its a good one...it maybe one of the best images you will see. But if you cannot and then you can find a Schneider built for the Elmo with no sleeve required, that maybe the next best thing. I have heard that since they are so rare (they really are. I only have seen 3 in the past 15 years or so. Ian got me the one I used to use) and made in so small batches the quality of those were more consistent than the Schneiders that were coming off the shelf for the Bauer, Norris, Visacoustic line. Those are the ones with the smooth barrel that you can use for the Elmo.
Andrew is right about the Schneider lens for the Beaulieu. Its very sharp when used with the Beaulieu and easier to dial in because of the micro metric focusing but if I could.. I would use the Elmo 1.0 on the Beaulieu too. This particular lens I have found is THAT good.
Good luck!!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on February 28, 2016, 04:40 PM:

Alan, I didn't know there is a Schneider model specifically designed for the Elmo. Good to know. Thanks.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 28, 2016, 05:06 PM:

Here is a pic of my lens that has been sold:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002590

Oh also forgot the price difference. The 1.1 Schneider lens for the Elmo's run around $250 + depending on if you have the original box, lens caps, etc. The Elmo 1.0's seem to always hover around $350.

Posted by Antoine Orsero (Member # 41) on February 29, 2016, 05:01 AM:

Thanks for all your answers. Now I understand better.
I own several zoom Elmo 1.0 and 1.1.
However these zoom have behind the front lens as if it were dirty and not sharp.
I do not know how to make this more clear lens

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on February 29, 2016, 06:05 AM:

I remember when that Schneider for Elmo lens was for sale and I wish now I had bought it. Ho hum...

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on February 29, 2016, 06:35 AM:

Good information for us Elmo users there Alan [Wink]

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 29, 2016, 07:53 AM:

Antoine, You can take apart both those lenses and give them a good clean. Most importantly is a very clean surface for you to work on, and you have to be very precise and methodical about sequence. If you search here you will find some instructions on how to do it. Only tool you will need is a lens spanner wrench. I got mine from here:
http://www.skgrimes.com/products/spanner-wrench
That will help you get the front element off and then you just disassemble. This tool is needed for the Elmo lenses.
I had one that was foggy near the rear element and used cold cream to clean it. Worked like a charm and the lens was back to its Semi-glory. (I could only do so much, it was an Elmo 1.1).
Good luck!

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on March 06, 2016, 07:18 AM:

Some years ago, I decided to purchase a quality zoom lens for my ST1200 and contacted a supplier who asked whether I required the Elmo 1.0 lens or the Snieder F1.1 lens. I asked for his recomendations were of either. The dealer very trustingly said " he would ship me both lenses and let me decide, suggesting I forward payment for the lens I kept, together with the unwanted lens. A very trusting gentleman!
I chose the Elmo lens, and was happy with the performance for two years or so, when the lens started to fog internally.
I contacted the supplier, who suggested I return it for cleaning, as "several customers had suffered this same fogging fault".
The dealer advised, when returning my lens, that someone at Elmo has used the WRONG type of lubication within the zoom assy during manufacture, which caused vapour from the lightsource-heated lubication to contaminate the elements.
I have had no further problems with this lens since it`s return and confirm pin sharp corner-to-corner focus. It is true that on both my ST1200 and GS you have to `chase the focus, but I think it a small price to pay.
I would however, snap-up a Sneider 1.1 lens if one became available.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 06, 2016, 11:13 AM:

No such issues ever experienced by myself by using either type of the Schneider f1.1 lenses David. Nor the f1.2 for that matter.

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on March 06, 2016, 02:05 PM:

I believe the misting contamination was only found on some 40 quantity of 1.0 Elmo types. I understand that an Elmo employee lost their job as a result!
Some 40 lenses of this type is a relatively minute number when
compared to world-wide distribution numbers I feel. Still a pain for those who bought within that particular batch.

Interestingly there was no charge made for cleaning or postage!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 06, 2016, 02:07 PM:

Thanks for the info there David. Though I've heard of the problem before relating to some Elmo lenses, i had no idea what the reasons behind it were, nor the consequences for the employee at the time!

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on March 06, 2016, 03:11 PM:

Mine is fogging! Who would clean them these days?

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2