8mm Forum: Film fade from a possibly different angle ...

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 10, 2016, 10:54 AM:

Folks ...

I hope that I won’t be too redundant, but I think that I will be attacking this issue from a totally new direction and may have solved the issue of film fade; at least I have solved what IS causing the film fade.

This may only apply to optical sound super 8 films. it may also apply to magnetic sound super 8 as well. Here is what I have discovered …

I noticed a while back that, on my faded film print of “The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams”, on and off, upon scrutinizing the film frame with a nice little lenses I use for that purpose, I noticed that there is the smallest, thinnest bit of perfect color on the very edge of the frame, right next to the optical soundtrack. it is incredibly thin, but it is there.

Now, the interesting thing about that perfect color, is that, it’s not perfect red, perfect cyan blue or perfect yellow, it is not perhaps one or two spectrums of color with the other faded, no ... it is a perfect mix of all three color spectrums. I also noticed that this thin strip varies, in some spots a little thicker and at other points less thick or even, non-existent.

I also noticed that the actual optical soundtrack does not have a single bit of fade. I should also note that the thicker or thinner is always away from the optical soundtrack and the fade never bleeds into the optical soundtrack.

What this reveals is very interesting. It means that this layer that’s on the top that we have all assumed erroneously (I have as well, folks), is a faded film dye, is not that at all.
It appears to be some form of “fixative” that is placed on the film, in the process AFTER the image is first fixed on the film stock, and added afterwards. Please note that I call it a “fixative” and it no doubt has a technical name that only those who are involved in the chemical process of producing a film print, would know.

Now, here’s where I’m going beyond what I know and where I need the help of my no doubt, knowledgeable fellow form members …

Question: Being that this is not a part of the actual color layers and placed on top, would it be possible to remove this layer off the film, not harming the actual printed image and them, being that it seems essential to the film printing process, be replaced?

I should also note (and I have it on good authority), that super 8 optical sound prints did have an additional layer of what I think was called a wax layer added to the film, so that it would slide on through the optical super 8 projectors smoothly and also reducing scratching at the same time.

Why do I ask this? I have over 50 optical sound films in my collection, only a few actually faded, but they are quite rare prints that I would actually love to resurrect and yes, one of them is …. The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams”, of which, I can see the perfect color on the edge, underneath this cursed layer.

Ladies and Gentleman, I await you’re thoughts and help!

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 10, 2016, 04:06 PM:

I do remember some home reversal film kits having a "Stabiliser" chemical to use after the bleach-fix, possibly formalin (I don't think it was formaldehyde). I've often wondered if this was a stage in Eastmancolor etc and mainly missed out by labs for speed/cost.

Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on March 10, 2016, 10:48 PM:

That would be incredibly irresponsible for them to skip the stabilizer step. Maybe that makes sense though? I feel like the folks at APUG could tell us about the chemical reactions and if this is a possibility

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 11, 2016, 11:18 AM:

The thing that I found fascinating, is that that very slim bit of image at the very edge of the frame, does have perfect color, which means that whatever was placed on top is the "culprit" and if that could be carefully removed or replaced, and if it could be figured out by some savvy film collector/archivist ...

... many a fading print could be restored and the impact could be great, as sometimes, rare film footage (from, for instance, early roadshow versions of the film), that are faded today, could be restored brilliantly for posterity.

It would, of course, take sacrificing a piece of film for the purpose of an appropriate length and run it through the appropriate "baths" to either remove that layer or restore it, and then set it out for a good long while to see if the restoration process would actually work or not.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 11, 2016, 02:06 PM:

Osi, isn't this shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? My thinking would be if the stabiliser wasn't used to stabilise the colour, the colour is now in an unstable (faded) state and can't be 'put back' as it's no longer there.

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 11, 2016, 06:50 PM:

This subject has been tackled before in these columns (may 17th 2014). The thin strip of retained colour is most likely due to the fact that colour films, after processing of the picture had occured, went through an application unit which laid a sticky bead of developer along the track area bringing it back to a hard silver image which was needed for an acceptable sound response. (Before the introduction of cyan tracks on 35mm)
Any fringing into the picture area may appear to affect the colour image at that point.
This was a very precise procedure and sometimes the 'bead' would skew slightly into
the picture area more than others, accounting for the inconsistent width of the redeveloped area.

[ March 14, 2016, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: Allan Broadfield ]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 12, 2016, 08:01 AM:

Allan - I'm curious regarding why the developer you mention was only applied to the track area. Was that simply to make it cheaper or was there any other reason? It seems unfortunate if at the time no one thought it was a route to low fade prints but I appreciate that no one would have been worrying about collectors viewing airline prints decades later!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 12, 2016, 01:04 PM:

That IS interesting Allan, I'll have to look that up.

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 12, 2016, 01:49 PM:

No cheapness involved or any reference to fading prints. Once the normal picture process has been achieved we are left with a standard contrast print, but this is no good for the track which needs to be of high contrast to achieve good sound response. Therefore the track is redeveloped back to a hard silver image with a thick bead of developer laid down by the applicator. As i said, this is a very precise procedure and over the years proved to be costly due to applicator bleeding into the picture. This often happened when the stock was not dried properly.
This, along with the effects of the extra chemicals going down the drain opened the necessity for cyan tracks (on 35mm) to be developed which didn't require extra developement.
Osi posed this question which was more or less covered a couple of years ago.

[ March 14, 2016, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Allan Broadfield ]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 14, 2016, 12:01 PM:

Actually, this spin on it was truly brand new, I believe, but who knows, I could be wrong.

So, to sum up what you stated, that very narrow bead that was applied might be the reason that a very thin line of perfect color still remains on the print? if that's so, then dang, one wishes that they had applied this to the whole print. [Frown]

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 14, 2016, 01:03 PM:

Yes but that would have left you with a contrasty hard silver image, which would have been unacceptable. The track needed to be that way but not the picture.
Unfortunately eastman colour started to fade something like ten years after production, this is why Technicolor prints are in demand as this was a different process entirely, and they tend to keep theircolours.

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 16, 2016, 10:17 AM:

Hi again Osi, I didn't mean to be the party bore, it's just that us old lab workers tend to get stuck in the past (before digital made us redundant), and that particular subject involving sountrack application was a pain, as it was the cause of a lot of reprints when the dreaded bead went astray. In the end the powers to be outlawed the silver tracks as so much waste chemicals were going down the drain.
I'm assuming that the aircraft optical prints were applicated in the track area, if someone says otherwise it would be interesting.
I'd still like to see some literature and pics on this subject.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 16, 2016, 11:40 AM:

So would I, as there is so little (apart from the forums) written about the over 23 year history of those super 8 optical features, (and otherwise, as the assorted super 8 companies also experimented with releasing super 8 product with optical soundtracks).

One story that always makes me inwardly weep (and I first read it on here), was about a super 8 optical film lab, specifically for the airlines, that manufactured the prints over in England, and a super 8 lover was visiting the site and eye-witnessed an executive for one of the big companies, (MGM, FOX? Who knows which one), who supervised the actual physical destruction of a bunch of super 8 optical prints after the airline run was done for the feature. I mean, hacking apart for features. Man, if I had been there, I would have been crying!!!

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 16, 2016, 12:15 PM:

Yes, from what Derann said at the time they got some of the prints, this was part of the contract terms from the film producers. They only licensed them to the airlines on the strict condition that were to be destroyed after they went out of use.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2016, 10:22 AM:

All credit to Derann for the remarkable deal that saved prints of 'Sudden Impact', 'Little Shop of Horrors', 'Pale Rider' and 'City Heat' from destruction, but it's a shame that optical prints ended soon afterwards, meaning they obtained little else in the way of 'bulk' prints.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 17, 2016, 11:49 AM:

I have all of those except for "Sudden Impact" which I wouldn't mind finding. Some of these were printed on late Kodak SP film stock, however.

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