8mm Forum: Interlacing problem

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Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 21, 2016, 06:27 PM:

Hello all, been a while.

My project/goal is putting 8mm films on DVDs for family members.

I spent over a year on this as I started without a clue, but
with the help and advice from several here, I'm very close to finished - at least I hope so.

Here's my process and problem:

Using my Sony DV camera and WinDV, I filmed and transferred my old 8mm films to AVI files on the PC. The quality isn't great but
if the DVDs look the same, I will be satisfied.

I did tons of editing with VirtualDub and some processing with AVISynth, and the result is a 2 hour movie/AVI file.

This file plays fine on my PC, although I can often see tiny artifacts during movement, which from what I've read and been told, seems to be an interlacing issue.

It's ok though because the AVI is watchable as-is. But when I burn to DVD the result is serious combing artifacts.

It will take me a LONG time to start all over again, so is there anything I can do to get a DVD without the awful jagged lines?

Here's what I've tried so far:
I burned the AVI directly to DVD with Nero.
I converted the AVI to VOB files using AVStoDVD, then I tried burning with both Nero and ImgBurn.
Then I converted the AVI to MPEG2 using AVStoDVD, then burned again.

Any advice would be great.

I have a clip of the AVI to post but I'm not sure how that's done here.

Thanks,
Bill

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 21, 2016, 10:39 PM:

Load the clip up to youtube and then put the url in your post here.

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 21, 2016, 11:09 PM:

Thanks, Barry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaUIFdiTZg&feature=youtu.be

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on March 22, 2016, 03:35 AM:

Bill, this is indeed a typical DV interlacing artefact. It could be worse, believe me.
Long story short, footage is interlaced when captured into the camera and then sometimes interlaced again when authored for the DVD.
I'm not familiar with the softwares you are using but see if any of the settings allow you to check for field priority. In DV format, lower field always comes first.
It's also better to edit a sequence in progressive, ie - without said priority, export as is and let the DVD burning software proceed with interlacing the footage again.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 22, 2016, 06:10 AM:

From what I have heard elsewhere there could be what is called a field dominance problem and the fields are processed with the wrong one shown first causing the artifacts to be worst.

Also saying AVI doesn't really mean anything as many compression systems can be in them. AVI only meaning Audio Video Interleaved a so called "Wrapper" description.

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 22, 2016, 02:58 PM:

Ok, here's the original clip I captured with WinDV. The only thing done to this is that I trimmed it in VDub/Direct Stream Copy.
Maybe this will reveal something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRABUxdUpe0&feature=youtu.be

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 22, 2016, 04:37 PM:

What AVI codec did you capture to and what codec did you export to? As Brian has already said...AVI is just a wrapper...there are several codecs that can be used. By any chance did you output to a Divx or Xvid codec? These are heavily compressed codecs that will leave artifacts.

Also...Virtual Dub has de-interlacing filters.

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 22, 2016, 04:44 PM:

"What AVI codec did you capture to and what codec did you export to? As Brian has already said...AVI is just a wrapper...there are several codecs that can be used. By any chance did you output to a Divx or Xvid codec? These are heavily compressed codecs that will leave artifacts.

Also...Virtual Dub has de-interlacing filters."

Hi Janice,
Sorry to say the answer to all your questions is I don't know.
I barely understand what a codec is. Is there a way for me to check?

Re: VDub - so maybe I can deinterlace the clips in VDub?

Edit:

Well ---
I just tried the standard deinterlace filter in VDub and by
j$!#s it worked! The DVD still shows some rough stuff during movement, plus it's very old footage and my capture is pretty lousy, but above all - it's watchable. No more jagged lines!

Janice, I can't thank you enough.
I've been on another forum for months (you know the one) and several big-shots there enjoyed slamming me good for my 'lack of knowledge and stupid questions' before actually giving some helpful advice. But not one person even suggested something as simple as the DI filter in VDub.

You are the goods, my dear.

The real test will be the final full 2hr DVD movie played on several stand alone players, but so far so good here on my two
machines. Fingers crossed.

Thank you again and again.

[ March 22, 2016, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Bill Vendasi ]

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 22, 2016, 08:21 PM:

Bill...I'm glad you are happy with the deinterlacing. I checked out WinDV most likely it used the default DV-AVI Type 2 codec (looks like it is the default) and it is interlaced as you discovered. Do a test first before converting all your footage to DVD with the deinterlaced footage. Remember when deinterlacing on the computer you will be removing half of the scan lines so your image will not be as sharp. Also...deinterlacing will require you to re-encode your footage to a new file. This is when you will have to chose what codec to output. You have to go to Video > Compression in VDub and chose a codec. If you output to "no compression" your file will be huge. I recommend Lagarith Lossless Video Codec. You can download it at http://lags.leetcode.net/codec.html . Install the codec and it will then show up in the list on VDub.The output will be an AVI file just a little bigger than the original DV-AVI file with no loss in quality.

Can I suggest a good SD capture program called Scenalyzer http://www.scenalyzer.com/. Like WinDV it too is no longer in development...but it is feature rich and still works very well.

Good Luck [Smile]

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 22, 2016, 09:30 PM:

Thanks Janice,

I tested 2 clips taken from the main AVI and they look ok. I can see the loss in some quality but I can live with it.

I processed the movie in VDub with no compression and did get a 147 GB AVI, but I have several TBytes of space so it's no problem.

Burning the final movie in Nero now. Hopefully, this will at least get the film out to the family, then I can start saving for
some frame by frame scanning gear.

Thanks,
Bill

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on March 23, 2016, 08:43 AM:

Hi Bill,
Two other programs to perhaps mention are handbrake and ripbot. I use both regularly.

After making my AVI's or Vob's using either DVDfab or DVDdecrypter(depending on situation and source), I then use either handbrake or ripbot to create the final.
Handbrake does a good job, and also has a better feature i like than deinterlacing called decombing. You can see a preview of the film created(5secs,10sc,30secs...) before ripping to test quality first.
Ripbot takes a bit more getting use to but yield great results. It also has a preview window to see how deinterlacing works.
Another feature i use wit hhandbrake as a trial sometimes is detelecine, which sometimes works better at getting rid of combing lines.
You can read about the differences in the filters here-
https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/DeinterlacingGuide

Whatever you chose, I hope it works out for you.... You can get a slider to move to increase quality with these two programs, and depending on patience and harddrive space, you can also move the slider into the 'placebo' zone(meaning super slow renders that improve quality...but probably cannot be detected by our eyes, thus placebo). I think the lossless codec Janice suggests can be installed and used in these as well, but i haven't tried that yet... The in-program codec's seem to work for me but i am willing to try anything if it improves the output...

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 23, 2016, 09:19 AM:

Thanks, Mathew,

Those are great ideas and I will try them. I have Handbrake but my AVI file doesn't open with it. Maybe it's the file?

My first result with VDub got rid of the comb effects ok, but left the film a bit jerky. Hopefully I can help that issue with some of your suggestions.

I have plenty of time and tons of HD space so I'll go for the best quality I can find.

Thanks,
Bill

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on March 23, 2016, 10:06 AM:

for avi containers in handbrake, try going source,video file ... rather than,say, source,file or source,folder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkoyQAXzSPA
If this doesn't work, you can try ripbot which demuxes files upon opening, which may help to open it. I hope it works out and it sounds like you got it under control for now.

For the motion jerk issues, i find this has more to do with bitrate settings. I don't like to leave it as 'auto', but try to find the sources bitrate and set it to match as close as possible. Also, fiddling with the fps setting. Sometimes again for me, auto doesn't detect properly and i fiddle with the framerate to try to match the source.

So many programs, so many settings, so little time!

[Smile]

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 23, 2016, 10:28 AM:

I'll try those.

Thanks, Mathew.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 23, 2016, 11:35 AM:

As much as I use Handbrake for creating compressed files of my DVDs for my digital Plex & Kodi library...converting telecined DV-AVI files to MP4 will only cause further artifacts. Also...a big problem I see is the size of your file. I don't know what the size of your DV-AVI file is...but the 167gb uncompressed file is way too big for your computer to handle. Even DVD's divide up the vob files into smaller 1,048 mb files.

If you are creating the files for viewing from a DVD then I wouldn't deinterlace at all. DVD players and TV's do a much better job of electronically converting interlaced images.What might look bad in the Microsoft Video Player will probably look fine when played from the DVD Player to your TV. NOTE: Try using VLC media player instead...it has a deinterlacing control and often works better than WMP.

If you want to post the video on YouTube or say PhotoBucket for your family to watch...then you should definitely divide and combine the clips into shorter segments...deinterlace/or decomb...and convert to mp4 (web optimized with Handbrake).

Try converting your DV-AVI file to Lagarith...without deinterlacing. It's a much better codec for going to DVD or to progressive formats and LAG files will go into Handbrake with no problem. Also...as good as some of these free softwares are...to get more predictable professional results a good video editor is a must. It just makes life easier. I use Adobe Premiere Pro for my editor and Adobe Encore for building and burning DVDs. There is a low cost version of Adobe Premiere called Premiere Elements that would be excellent for your needs...and there is also Sony Vegas. I have other codecs that I could recommend (BlackMagic codecs are excellent)...but I don't want to muddy the waters for you. At this point you are probably already over-loaded with input. [Eek!]

Most likely the original codec that was captured from WinDV isn't that good...but maybe converting it to LAG will help. I've spent the last 6 years trying to find the perfect solutions (haven't found them all yet) ...lots of trial and error just like you, but my transfers have gotten better. Keep at it [Smile]

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 23, 2016, 02:16 PM:

Guess I should have given more detail.

My only goal is to have a standard DVD, no other format.

VLC is my go-to player on PC, and it plays my AVI file just fine.
I discovered the problem when I burned the first DVD and played it on two stand alone DVD players. So I assume I HAVE to deinterlace since that's where the ugly lines first appeared.
And my first effort with the VDub filter yesterday did in fact clean up the lines.

I'm not sure what you mean by the AVI file is too big to handle.
The original file is 93GB and the one I just deinterlaced with VDub is 147GB. It seemed to process fine, and as I said, the lines disappeared - so I figure I'm on the right track. Maybe you're saying the result would be even better if the AVI file was smaller or split up?

I will try converting the AVI file to Lagarith without deinterlacing, just to compare.

Thanks.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 23, 2016, 02:45 PM:

Yes Bill give LAG a try...if it doesn't improve you've only lost a little time. See if the image still stutters with and without deinterlacing applied.... and see if it transcodes better with less artifacts to DVD. The performance factor is not in the ability for the PC to do the encoding...it's more the ability to process the playback smoothly. You've put in a lot of work already and I hope you can resolve these issues.

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 23, 2016, 02:52 PM:

Thanks Janice,

I'll be all over this when I get home tonight.

Fingers x'd

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 24, 2016, 12:38 AM:

Bill I forgot to include in my PM the link to the VDub all-in-one installer...This includes the Lagarith codec and lots of other useful filters and plugins.

http://www.videohelp.com/software/VirtualDub-AIO

Posted by Bill Vendasi (Member # 4815) on March 24, 2016, 07:18 AM:

That's great, Janice,

I'll try the VDub installer with LAG tonight.
Also, I don't have any Ulead programs installed.

Thanks,
Bill

Posted by William Olson (Member # 2083) on April 03, 2016, 11:56 AM:

On this topic, I'd like to share my method. Variable speed projector set to 20fps. Diffuser glass between lamp and film gate. Project into a Buhl Mobile Multiplexer. Using a Sony 3CCD Pro camera, I shoot the aerial image from the multiplexer sending the signal to a processor to manually adjust color, contrast and density. Processor output gets recorded to Sony DvCam digital tape. Resulting tape gets burned to a stand alone DVD recorder. No computer is used at all and my original transfer is archived on the DvCam tape.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on April 03, 2016, 06:47 PM:

Nice process, William. Where did you get your diffuser glass?

Posted by William Olson (Member # 2083) on April 03, 2016, 09:58 PM:

Hi Barry. I got the diffuser glass from Edmund Optics. I had to grind down the edges to make it fit. The beauty of this method is the ease with which you can stop the transfer at any point if corrections are needed. You can run the digital DvCam tape back to any point and resume recording your transfer. Once your done, you have a smooth transfer with scene to scene corrections. Then it's just a matter of burning the DVD from the playback of the tape. I have nothing against computers. I just like this process and the results.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on April 04, 2016, 04:48 PM:

Thanks William. Your setup certainly has its' advantages. I don't think I have read where anyone else has done that.

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