8mm Forum: Sad state of reversal film availability

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Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on August 05, 2016, 07:32 AM:

I finally got back the 2 cartridges of film I shot early last month. One was a 200D Agfa film sold by Pro8mm through Amazon. The other was some 100D limited availability Kodak film, again sold by Pro8mm but directly from their site. It was found on a super secret page that someone here directed me to (thank you !).

I used the film over the course of a couple of days. The first day was mostly overcast, so the 200D came in handy. The 100D was used on the sunny day and turned out pretty well.

The Agfa 200D was disappointingly grainy. I knew it was going to be at least a little grainy because Pro8mm shows samples of their films on their site. The sample probably should have been considered a best case scenario. I would never use that 200D again unless I was after that look.

Of course the 100D that did turn out well may not be available anymore or soon won't be. Pro8mm is "beta testing" some 100D fuji film in conjunction with Retro 8 of Japan but that will likely be pretty expensive.

That leaves the color negative film which by all accounts is pretty good, but the end result is a digital format, not something you can project. I could live with that if the HD processing/scanning prices were more reasonable. Film + HD scanning is $130. That doesn't include shipping to and from Pro8mm. Expect to spend almost $150 when all is said and done. Impossible to Justify for 3 minutes of film.

Posted by Nick Collingwood (Member # 5356) on August 05, 2016, 12:19 PM:

So things are indeed a bit dire but not a total wash. There's obviously always Tri-X but it doesn't seem like you're interested in b&w reversal. Agfa 200D is indeed grainy but it's alright. Could be worse...

Even so, if the beta test with Pro8mm Provia goes well, I've heard it's one of the best reversal stocks ever to exist! I might have to throw down some cash to support the beta.

As far as processing/scan goes, you're working off inflated Pro8mm prices. I love those guys for supporting Super 8 but man are their prices high. I can half your costs.

Film stock - http://www.buy8mmfilm.com/

$26/roll for any Kodak v3 negative and $20.50 for Tri-X and $28/roll for Agfa. Shipping is like $6.

Or there's a guy on ebay selling Super 8 film stock for cheap.

Processing and scanning.
CineLab. They are basically the cheapest and yet best bang for you dollar. They'll process for $18/roll and for HD scan (with best light) it's $17 (2 roll minimum) or for a 2k flat scan (4 roll minimum) it's $25.

So let's say for 2 color rolls.
Stock - $52 + $6 shipping
Processing and HD scan - $36 processing + $34 scan + $10 return shipping + $6 shipping TO

TOTAL - $144 so $72/roll.

And the cost goes down if you buy more rolls at once so the shipping charges are more worth it. I think I calculated 6 rolls for an upcoming shoot coming out to around $65/roll at 2k.

So yes... DEFINITELY not cheap but without a doubt loads cheaper than Pro8mm.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on August 05, 2016, 12:56 PM:

Thanks Nick, I did look at Cinelab for HD scans but when I checked their prices they had a $150 minimum. Maybe I misread that.

I expect that in time HD scan pricing will drop, so I suppose that's the good news. I doubt I will be shooting anymore Super 8 for at least a year, so hopefully things will have improved by then.

Posted by Nick Collingwood (Member # 5356) on August 05, 2016, 02:26 PM:

No problem! I've been trying to perfect my cost per roll ever since I got into Super 8 a year ago. It is not a cheap hobby. I hear ya there.

With CineLab, they are slow on updating their online pdfs. Well just the main one. Ha. The student price sheet as well as their order forms are from 2016 but their normal price sheet is from 2014 (as you can see in the pdf file name)

https://www.facebook.com/CinelabBoston/posts/1090571010963370

Not sure if you can see that without a facebook but they posted there that they lowered the minimums. You can even see my comment complaining about their pdfs haha. And the minimum for S8 is now $50 so 3 rolls. Not too bad. If you do 1 light transfer, it's $15/roll instead of $17 but honestly the $2 is worth it.

Don't give up on Super 8!! If you really want cheap cheap, get Tri-X and home process it yourself for projection. Should get your roll costs to around $30. And for digitizing, it ain't pretty but you can always record a projection with a digital camera... free but not ideal.

Oh wait actually, there's a guy on the cinematography.com forums, Tony Schilling who scanned a few rolls for me at 1080p for cheap. Could reach out to him as well. Nice guy!

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on August 06, 2016, 01:45 AM:

Jeez, I should have looked a little closer at the date on the PDF, had I known I might have gone through them.

Well, I did scan the films myself with a telecine box and a DSLR. Not perfect but not awful either. Some minor color balance and color correction tweaks made all the difference with Agfa 200D roll. I used some other software to remove a bit of the grain. It's not great but loads better. Even the 100D roll colors looked off to me and it was fixed easily on the scanned version.

Makes me sad that I had to digitize them to make them look good (though the 100D wasn't bad). And given that, maybe I'll just go the color negative route and scan next time around. Again, it makes me a little sad but there was such a night and day difference even with my crude telecine methods.

Posted by William Olson (Member # 2083) on August 06, 2016, 09:47 AM:

Oh, how I long for the days when Kodachrome 40 was commonplace. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 06, 2016, 10:00 AM:

Indeed!

Oh for K40S. (sigh)

Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on August 06, 2016, 11:41 AM:

I just shot a roll of the 200D Agfa, but haven't sent it out yet.
It is a shame costs are so high for color reversal, but I think Pro8mm's prices are worth it. I have tried to do every step separately in the past, but I realized that when you have a one-stop-shop like Pro8mm, you pay for good service and efficiency- First you buy a film+processing package, which is $45/roll, not much difference in buying, then processing thru different companies. Then, I would recommend looking out for Pro8mm's holiday sales on scanning.
The all-inclusive packages are cost efficient, too, if you need it scanned right away-
They also have image stabilization technology for scanning when you shoot with the camera locked down and that makes a great improvement; No more jitter. You can't get that with DIY.
Other labs are good, too, I just happen to have good experience with Pro8mm.
Anyway, It will save you a lot of work and effort in shipping if you have a one-stop-shop.

Posted by Nick Collingwood (Member # 5356) on August 06, 2016, 04:48 PM:

Daniel, I definitely get the all-in-one thing. Although it's not much different. You have the initial order of the film and shipping. You shoot it. Then you ship to one place that does the developing/scanning in one spot. So for Pro8mm it's the same amount of shipping at double of the cost. I did buy 4 4k rolls when they recently had a sale for $75 all included but haven't used them yet. And their flat 2k packages are now only $100 vs the $130 for a 1080p graded packages.

I do wish CineLab would do an all in one package as they are cheap and close to me. haha. Although they don't do E6 so that obviously eliminates color reversal processing. So perhaps Pro8mm for that or Dwaynes or also Spectra does packages as well but high scan prices that I don't quite understand to be honest.

As far as stabilization, I've used Warp Stabilizer in Premiere with relatively good success on some very jittery/shaky footage.

I've only shot one roll of 200D for a little short film and it was decent in projection although I'm waiting on my 2k scan now.

Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on August 06, 2016, 09:19 PM:

There are plenty of good options. Now that PacLab closed, there are no more terrible labs.
I am wondering why Pro8mm does cheaper scanning for 2K than for 1080p.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on August 07, 2016, 01:04 AM:

So how does one find out about their holiday sales? Is there a mailing list of some sort?

Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on August 07, 2016, 11:51 AM:

Yes, I'm on their mailing list and I get news about sales. I forgot how I got on it, but you can email info@pro8mm and request that.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on August 07, 2016, 03:10 PM:

Well I guess I'm committed to filming more Super 8 because I just bought a Nikon 8x Super Zoom from Ebay. It was mislabeled and wasn't getting much interest but it looks good and they claim it works.

Got it for a little over $30 shipped. It's got a manual exposure option, can film at 24 fps, meters just about every type of film, and most importantly has a focus aid which my current camera does not and apparently is something I need. [Wink]

It's also got 7.5 to 60mm zoom which will make it easier to work in tight spaces. I was trying to shoot people jumping off on a pontoon on a lake with the old camera and it was tough.

Posted by Nick Collingwood (Member # 5356) on August 07, 2016, 03:22 PM:

Ha that's great Tom. Finding cheap but great Super 8 cameras on eBay is a bad obsession of mine.

Daniel the cheaper rate is malnly because they don't do any color correcting. They just do a flat scan vs with the 1080p they spend some time correcting it. Therefore more cost.

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