This is topic Here's your 2nd chance in case you missed it the first time... in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on March 16, 2017, 12:35 PM:
Speed-1049 Euros
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SUPER-8-SPEED-in-Cinemascope-from-DERANN-TOP-/142310902290?hash=item2122640a12:g:MhAAAOSwax5Yxb~a
Speed-990 Euros
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SPEED-CINEMASCOPE-near-mint-DERANN-print-english-sound-Super-8-/352006686558?hash=item51f53bc75e:g:brMAAOSwXYtYxlj3
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 16, 2017, 03:44 PM:
I guess like in the stock market... "It is time to sell" heh?
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Cheers,
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 04:22 PM:
And then what?
Ok I purchased a mint print of this film a few years back now and was delighted to have found one in such condition.
It was a higher price point than most other films at the time as was reflected by it's quality and condition.
The price in one similar instance has now taken this print way beyond what I paid, so i should sell is what you're saying Winbert.
Well, why?
I sell it for a similar amount and then don't have one of the films I always wanted and still in the condition I am seeking.
So then what?
Ok, i try and look for another, but the problem is, there isn't one as nice or when there is even anything remotely like it, it cost £1000.
So what would be the point of selling it if you're an avid film collector?
None whatsoever!
Just be pleased you DIDN'T have to pay today's prices at the time you bought it, that's all i can say.
It's like all of these deluded idiots that think they've done well by buying their first house 10 years ago for 200k and now receiving £500K for it. Only then to upgrade to one costing £800K in today's world. Where is the profit? There isn't one in net terms, unless you then go living in a tent!
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 16, 2017, 04:29 PM:
This is a film that we may get cheerished a long ago, but after several screening or got influenced by other films, we may no longer be feeling the same.
I used to like Sledge Hammer! TV series, but after finsihing all episodes of Monk then I re-watch Sledge Hammer! I just don't like it! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I guess it is time to move onto new films now ...that is at least for me.
In the stock market, we are selling the stocks to make profit and buy another stocks which are still lower price.
If I don't like a film which has now reached that high price similar to $1200, why I have to keep it. I will sell it and buy some Disneys that is still around $300. I can have 4 titles and who knows, it will reach $900 ...one day.
Well...I guess I am really a stockbroker now.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 04:34 PM:
You could buy this new for about £260 at times from Derann.
Its hardly a classsic is it.
£150 would be about right really.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 04:36 PM:
Never in a month of Sundays Mark, hence why it's others paying the thousand pound Mark and not yourself!
A pint of what you're also on please Mark!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 04:42 PM:
Knew, is the word you were looking for.
The point is, anyone who is generally INTO this hobby or many many others like collecting art etc etc, doesn't care less about the money aspect of these things, only the pleasures they bring from collecting them.
Any true collector doesn't really care where the next big price emerges from, not one bit!
Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on March 16, 2017, 04:42 PM:
This film is not worth £1000_+ no film is ,its probably not even a collector that pays that price .just some rich person who wants to say look i got it and will never watch it and not even have a projector .Th trouble is it every time this happens a film is going out of circulation for real film collectors and make a non rare film rare ,it would be much better to sell for £400 to a true film collector and keep it in the community just the way i see it ,i sell lots of films but like i said before re star wars if i had them (providing i didnt pay more in the first place ) id gladly let a true collector have for a proper price .i could go on but just the way i look at it .lets hope e can still keep collecting and at a viable price for the every day man not just the super rich ....
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 04:50 PM:
I wish I was super rich Nigel, but believe me, I am not.
I get what i can and wish well all those who can afford more.
Good luck to anyone who enjoys these things even half as much as I do.
Why would anyone buy anything that they cannot use?
That makes no sense at all to anyone.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 04:53 PM:
I`m saying what its worth, not what it might sell for ebay, and online doings can make anything go crazy.
Does`nt mean its worth any more, just cost more.
Better for the hobby altogther if you could get any nice feature for £120-£200.
Why on earth did`nt the people who pay even half way close to these silly prices support Derann properly at the time.
I suppose its a case of not appreciating what you have.
You could call up and buy a full feature with some discount from £200 brand new and guaranteed.Only 6 years ago.
I`ll happily say I will never pay these prices.
I`d rather watch a faded 400 footer any day.
Infact been watching some on yourtube tonight !!!! too.
Crazy maybe but not as crazy as these daft prices.
Imagine paying that and the bottom falls out of it all. It will one day.
Best Mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7avLx1mfN0
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 04:59 PM:
But that's the point, it wouldn't matter a jot to anyone who loves their collection. You just don't get it do you?
Anything in life is only worth what somebody else is prepared to pay for it. A bit more when this escalates to two.
I was having my kids when all these were released, that is the reason why I did not and could not buy more at the time and why I am more than happy now to make up for lost time, like others seemingly are likewise.
"It will one day" has now been said for over TWENTY YEARS!
Still they keep going up.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 05:30 PM:
I do get it, but its a crazy and out of control thing.
These films will be back down to a very very low amount by comparrison with now in 5 /10 years.
Because you pay 4/5 times what you should really for a film does`nt make it any better to own or enjoy etc.
It just cost you a stack of cash.
If you pay £400 for a super 8 film now except maybe the odd star wars print for non film reasons, it will be back down to around £100 in the not too distant future.
Film is awash with oppertunists these days, a few ex collectors but mainly not collectors as such, and they are doing harm to the hobby, not enhancing it at all.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 05:36 PM:
Just like any money making opportunity always is.
5 to 10 years...OH please!
20 so far, things still just go up and up.
When we are no longer here and these are faded maybe then i'd say, until then, let's just all remember, what we now have, will never be produced ever again. If that were to ever change, then and only then, would it be a different story.
I have enough bits and pieces now to keep projecting for another 50 years minimum, so even that argument doesn't come into it for those in the same boat.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 05:46 PM:
Just a shame the hobby will end up with so few new people coming in now.
But there you go.
But don`t expect super 8 to fund a pension top up when the bottom falls out.
Its more about obsession, compulsion and other Psychological issues when it gets to it with these daft extremes.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 05:52 PM:
Pension taken care of thanks Mark, but I appreciate your concern thank you.
Not had a day out of work since first beginning in Sept 82 thankfully, and very much touching wood.
Probably like most shift workers in the modern world, I will receive little of it anyhow, but at least my good lady will be ok.
Compulsion, Obsession, Psychological disorder, no more than the next man in 21st C life.
Greed, certainly not.
Enjoyment, satisfaction and the thrill of the reel is the way I like to term it all.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 06:00 PM:
Its killing the hobby, and the numbers even regularly here are going down.
Super 8 just really isn`t worth these crazy prices at all.
I`m the first to admit it overall doesn`t even look that good, though I enjoy it myself.
We can all differ on what we think, I just hope these crazy price Charlies stop creating this artificial hype nonsense.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 06:03 PM:
Crazy Hype Charlies still love their hobby sadly Mark, so Crazy Hype Charlies is all there will probably be in due course, based on what you are sadly saying, and of course, other collectors general apathy at times towards our great hobby sadly.
Numbers here go up on a monthly basis, just like all other film forums I use. People that post anything film related or worthwhile on the other hand, go down.
That is entirely up to themselves. Some just simply don't have anything to say regarding the hobby, others like to read but not post, others just simply don't like to be questioned and cannot be bothered debating our hobby. Their choice, simple as that.
Incidentally, I post all of my own screen shots at a minimum size of 8ft wide on a 6ft deep screen. More obviously for letterboxed and scope screenings.
If anyone can tell me that these don't look very good for the most part, please recommend me a decent eye surgeon.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 06:16 PM:
Crazy Hype Charlies love money Andrew 990 E plus 45 E post for a mediocre film on super 8.
Some marks, possibly poor sound, etc etc.
If its post 2001 LPP it will be shakey image wise too and have poor stripe.
Its not rare either.
Its worth £150-200 absolute max.
Star Wars it is not.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 06:20 PM:
Mark, you clearly have not sampled the very best film and machinery available to the gauge.
As if anyone in their right mind would pay anything like this for a shakey image riddled in base scratches or any other???
The only accurate thing you predict is that the sound can often need revisiting post 98. All else, I'm sorry, that's just not as it is.
Again, never in a month of Sunday's
Take a look at the 400+ Screenshots if you are unconvinced!
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on March 16, 2017, 06:23 PM:
So, around $1100 or £900 for either and the second seller wants £35 to post it from Germany to the UK! Meanwhile, you can buy a full-length HD copy on YouTube for £5.99.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 06:24 PM:
And the news behind that is exactly what sorry, Will?
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 06:47 PM:
I`ve run very nice prints on a 2 blade 200 watt Fumeo with a 1.1 zenovaron and they don`t come close to HD on a £300 + LCD projector these days.
You can`t expect them too though.
Good, HD panel LCD even has a nice sort of filmie look too.
The thing with this silly price rubbish its actually pushed a lot of us filmies out of running many of the features.
Unless you are lucky enough to pick them up from a non corrupted collector, or Ian.
Much Super 8 is clearly very well overpriced and its damaging the hobby.
Super 8 can scratch at a moments notice etc.
Most of us could probably not relax and enjoy showing these nutty price films just in case etc too.
I hope to God no one enables this seller and encourages others to ask such ludicrous prices.
Best Mark.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Speed-Blu-ray-2007-/152471262415?hash=item237ffed4cf:g:wpYAAOSw4A5YxwYK
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on March 16, 2017, 06:55 PM:
I was just converting the asking prices to $s and £s for the benefit of those on here who might be unfamiliar with the value of the Euro, Andrew. The YouTube reference was just a statement of fact illustrating the potential high cost of film collecting these days. OK?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 07:09 PM:
But everyone knows Will DVD/ Blu Ray is "buttons" by comparison.
It matters not to a film collector.
It didn't when it was VHS /Betamax
It didn't when it was Laserdisc
It didn't even when it was first DVD / Blu Ray
And it won't when it's 40k HD!
It matters not and affects the charm and collectability of film, none.
Never has, never will do.
The late Mr Littlechild started this debate off in a film magazine eons ago.
Some listened, thankfully many did not.
Made me wonder why he ever bothered collecting film when i read his articles at times, I have to say.
HD HOME CINEMA dedicated projectors are indeed perfect practical modern day alternatives.
For anything other, there is a huge compromise even in HD!
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 16, 2017, 07:14 PM:
Then again it will go to the classical debate film vs. digital.
How many times I should say that collecting film is just a hobby that is supposed to make us happy.
It does not come from the quality of the picture, because we cannot compare the super 8mm' 800p (800 x 600) resolution against Bluray which is 1080p (and now is going to 2K or 4K).
We enjoy film because we love the format and for some people, for nostalgic and sentimental feelings. We love VW buggy because we love VW, not to compete with Lamborghini. It does not make any sense to say VW runs faster than Lamborghini.
If we project super 8mm onto 4m x 3m (13.12' x 9.84') making 196" vs Bluray at the same screen, and you say that super 8mm projects better image, then you must be drunk.
It does not mean I love Bluray than super 8mm. It is just collecting Bluray does not give the same pleasure with collecting super 8mm. Period.
cheers,
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 07:16 PM:
For once Winbert, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 16, 2017, 07:24 PM:
Film really is great and has a magic way beyond the over priced brigades set of values.
Derek S thought DVD projection and Laser discs too, were great, even back then just out of interest.
If he had seen it now !!! it would blow his mind.
But you can`t beat something like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEIes2fzRMA
The next clip is good too.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 07:36 PM:
Better still in real life.
A real larger than life character was Barry and riddled with controversy!
Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on March 16, 2017, 07:43 PM:
Not that I can afford those prices unless I won the Lottery,I would want FREE postage like the dearer 1 offers!
How rare is this print that someone thinks it worth that much?
I guess if someone pays that then it's worth that to them.
Imagine if you were watching it and your projector had a glitch and chewed it!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 07:51 PM:
But for the people this concerns, this will not happen Clinton. That's the point!
There are just so so many various levels you can operate at within this hobby.
For those that buy these, they ain't playing around.
I laughed inwardly when i read one of Janice's latest posts regarding threading!
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on March 16, 2017, 08:35 PM:
I agree that there's nothing like projecting a film. It's a hands on experience. Although I have many VHS tapes, I've had to scrap some due to mould. DVD's, I've read, can become unreadable after a few years and this has happened with one data DVD I had. In contrast, my family films, some shot over 50 years ago on Kodak stock, are as fresh as they were back then.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 08:39 PM:
So now,... sigh.....we go all the way back the very beginnings as to why oh why so many people choose to still buy film no matter what the price. For better, for worse, just like a bad marriage!
Believe me, the latter costs much much more!
Don't you agree Mark?? (screenshots now lined up for you btw, not an unsteady frame in sight, nor a Fumeo!!)
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on March 16, 2017, 08:57 PM:
It's an obsession and, if you can afford it, you'll buy anything related to your interest like Star Wars fans. My son is an avid Queen fan. He spent hundreds of pounds on a copy of the guitar used by Brian May despite not be able to play it. It's in its box in his wardrobe.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 16, 2017, 09:00 PM:
My own equivalent is ready to thread up and ready to project!
Don't worry your brow Janice, all will be fine!
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 17, 2017, 05:47 AM:
Really sick and tired of these same old subjects coming up.
Our thankfully free society means sellers can advertise and buyers are able to make up their own minds what something is worth - why anyone should be so worried about this long established free trading process is totally beyond me.
Perhaps it would be better for some of you to leave and instead join an antiques, stamp collecting or classic car forum and royally p-off the members on there instead (perhaps you already do).
Kevin
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 17, 2017, 06:03 AM:
The difficulty is that when people are trying to get so silly prices out of film, it also tends to go with not mentioning odd flaws etc with the stripe, printing marks and so on.
As they see so much value in it, and become money obsessed so allow themselves be be a little less upfront if you will.
If you buy a feature for £150 lets say and it has a few flaws, well it can be lived with and its part of film, but if its in the over £300 type of thing, it starts to get bad news. When you get up towards a price of nearly £1000 for something as usual and not so rare as Speed its getting crackers.
For me that sort of ridiculous type price is just adding unrestrained hype and inflation to a hobby already getting out of control.
I expect there will be a stock market type crash at some point, but its not helping the hobby now.
Thankfully there are still a lot of B+W`s etc that don`t seem to be touched by it at all so there is hope. And fair dealers.
It looks as if its people who are in the hobby a bit or on the fringe of it, that seem to be forcing the real damage.
Best Mark
Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 17, 2017, 06:24 AM:
Tut tut, boys, cool the testosterone down. This used to be the sort of forum that u could let grannie read!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 06:33 AM:
And still is Allan.
Look Mark, I don't want to pay more than I have to for any print. I'd be quite happy of course if they were all being sold for £50 now, but they're not sadly.
If and when this does become the case, I will no doubt be even happier because then it will mean I can go on collecting the kind of films I personally prefer, even just on my old age pension by then hopefully!
The reason, as ever, is simply down to supply and demand.
The very same reason as to why 10 years ago, you could purchase reasonably priced prints like these from our remaining dealers and now 99% of the time, you cannot.
I have to pay what someone else is willing to pay. Either that or simply don't collect these type of films.
It's as simple as that. When the silly bidding wars take place, on each and every occasion, I just stand back.
I have my limits, just like everyone else has.
Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 17, 2017, 07:21 AM:
Despite my comment, which was tongue in cheek, I am sympathetic to yours and others views.
As a keen collector, and hirer, of films since the fifties (starting on 9.5mm), i have resigned myself to the fact that the average collector is being priced out of the market and now mostly run films on my dvd projector.
Even the kids, when visitng, say that they miss the sound of the projector, but whst can you do?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 07:26 AM:
Agreed Allan and here's hoping Marks predictions come true in five years time, for us all.
I'm not holding my breath though, based on the countless predictions from the masses, even the maestro himself,over the past twenty something years or so!
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 17, 2017, 08:23 AM:
It doesn't really matter either way if film prices go up, stick or go down, there will always be some career worrier who will do nothing but moan on here about the money, money, money, whereas the reality is anyone can partake in the hobby for as little or as high as they wish to spend.
Yes the top notch titles in mint condition are sky high at the moment (on all gauges not just Super 8) and may stay that way but there are plenty of other affordable films to go 'round however deep or otherwise your pockets may be.
My neighbour owns and drives classic cars on a daily basis, and he regularly re-trims them for other car collectors. Perhaps the next time I see a few £k changing hands for his expertise I should jump in and say - 'you could have had a brand new Dacia for that' to his customer and then add 'why bother with that old Bentley / Rolls Royce / MG etc. you must be mad there are far cheaper more reliable and comfortable alternatives these days?'.
No of course I wouldn't question their hobby choice - it is the customer's right to spend their money as they want without anyone interfering and I wish the same etiquette could be seen on here.
Kevin
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 08:45 AM:
Let's see what happens here before we draw any conclusions.
Asking prices are not always selling prices and so far there are no fish nibbling at the bait!
As far as the movie, it breaks one of my basic requirements for film prints I consider buying: if I saw it in the $9.99 DVD bin at the Supermarket I still wouldn't buy it!
Speed Reading!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 08:50 AM:
And that of course, would be all down to your personal taste in films Steve. Nothing more, nothing less.
Obviously, for at least one recent collector, they do not share that same opinion as your own Steve.
I wouldn't buy Dracula films or Keystone Cops films, but I know plenty that would!
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 17, 2017, 08:56 AM:
Well, you know my thoughts on this, no matter how much i want a movie, if this is what i would have to pay then they can shove it right where the sun shines, its just ridiculous.
Aint no movie on earth worth this, & i also think these are the collectors who are getting out while the sun shines, why else would you sell off the cream of your collection.
Even some dealers are pissing me off at the moment, they ask you to tell them your wants so "we can put you on our system and let you know if we get one", what happens just two months later, one comes in and goes out on the list & its sold. What a load of bollocks!
So, if i had one or more copies of the said title and people seem willing to paying a grand + then i would let them go.
Harsh but reality.
Not even DH
This
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 08:59 AM:
Not too much surfacing Tom, not where I go shopping at least??
I won't pay a thousand pounds for any film either, but like I repeatedly say, luckily now, you and I don't have to when you see the ones we have resurface!
Even the prices I paid back then, many would turn their noses up at. It's as Kevin says, very much a personal choice thing and while ever two or more people want the very same film let alone one particular one off immaculate print,it is always going to be a war of the wallets unfortunately. It's just the way it is in life for things no longer available to buy brand new but highly collectible nonetheless.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 17, 2017, 09:22 AM:
It really depends on how many iffy film deals a person can tollerate at high prices.
If I bought a film over £300 and up, and it had issues with the image or sound etc. I`d feel quite cheated.
If it was £100 I could live with it.
If you add in overseas type postal cost too it can get very hard going.
It appears there is a little gulf opening up between people who genuinely enjoy the hobby and share good things around if you will.
And theres the oppertunist Brigade. I don`t include dealers in that, as I think they all seem to be staying very fair in the face of things.
There are still great and affordable films about but I wonder how we can get new people in to the hobby.
My eldest son loves film, but he has 3 children ( one his own ) so only does it through me sort of thing. It does at least mean he does it on and off and quite young. But he certainly can`t afford to get in to it as many of the films he would enjoy and love to own are crazy price wise now.
The current prices really do keep him away from it and most certainly his other half. We used to have great fun when he was young though.
I suppose in relative terms £400 even if a film really is right is,nt too bad value if you factor in, inflation, but if you factor in the cost of living now its still a toughie.
I remeber an old lady tellimg me about when she and her husband were first married thier house cost them £1 a week, when he was on £5 a week ( we are going back here ).
But a couple now if only the man worked would probably be looking at well over half his income for the home now.
I wonder what the cost of a new feature will be now with the possible up coming one.
Be interesting to see.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 09:30 AM:
The only "iffy" factor I have tended find surrounding nigh on all of the later feature films I tend to buy, is the soundtrack.
Some are more than acceptable, like my recent pocahontas purchase, which for once had the best sound I have ever come across for a later pasted stripe film.
Others like my Fantasia print for example, are very poor for their original stereo sound.
So long as you are confident you can do a "Job" on these type of prints though,and make them all sound far better than any original recordings, all is not lost I have found.
If it had have been, I may have moved to collecting model trains by now, like any sane collector paying these prices would have been forced into!
(somehow, I doubt it though! Toot Toot .)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 09:48 AM:
-you haven't seen what people are paying for model trains these days!
Don't get me wrong on this Andrew. Hearing you have a print with grownups in it instead of animated princesses leaves me kind of impressed!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 09:49 AM:
Oh I have many Steve, don't you worry your head about that one Steve!
Equally, our family will soon have an additional prince or princess. How good will that be when they're old enough to finally watch and enjoy all of these wonderful animated classics alongside their Grandad! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I feel a certain photograph may soon need an update!
[ March 17, 2017, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 17, 2017, 09:58 AM:
I wonder if its a lot to with even greater obssesional things in the hobby world overall.
Not just films.
People are loosing religion and replacing it with fixations etc.
Anti Trump, or PC type things for instance.
Don`t worry not going to bang on about those.
The internet definately fuels things all round.
I`m the first to admit that without film I`d have a big hole in my life and it helps me focus away from things. And the realities of what we are, and are not etc.
Also in film bad luck seems to come in waves when buying.
I suppose basically my thoughts are, the more aforbale it is, the easier it is to weather those storms when they hit, as they inevitably do.
Best Mark.
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2017, 10:04 AM:
I have to broadly agree with Kevin. These debates/arguments started by high eBay asking prices are becoming repetitive, especially as no one seems to be persuading others to change their mind, whatever their point of view is.
I'd be curious to know whether people paying the highest prices are keen collectors who will show the films now and again, but we can't ask them and if they are members here, they probably don't dare identify themselves! On a 'live and let live' basis I'd say good luck to them and I simply hope they don't put the film away as some sort of 'collectable', but I doubt that other than in certain cases where the boxes are a major part of the appeal (as applies to certain older 200' and 400' package movies) and with some Star Wars sales - but even with these we can't say how many are bought by SW collectors without projectors, and I'd guess that some would prefer a Ken SW release with a mint box to a full length Derann feature with battered cardboard boxes!
I have to disagree that this is "killing the hobby" because the ultra-high prices are a tiny fraction of sales overall. OK, the features now sold for around £300 represent far more outlay than 10 years ago, but many of us selling these are active collectors who could use the money to buy other films. I was more troubled when it was difficult to get £120 for a mint, recently-released feature run once, that I'd be selling because I'd found a 16mm print! At least the higher prices give a sense that we are interested in a product that's desirable rather than one that has had its day and is in decline, and that might make it more appealing to some. Super 8 can be seen in the wider context of a film revival that could in a smaller way compare to vinyl, and that has to be a good thing. I recall already seeing evidence of a vinyl revival over 10 years ago, before the recent more spectacular rise, so I feel it's highly premature to predict a rapid decline in Super 8 prices within 5-10 years, as desirable films (and I'd say that Speed is a fine example of its kind) in excellent condition will only become harder to find. But I take the point that such buys are a risk, because even if the condition is mint, you might find one or more reels that are unsteady; with poor sound; bluish, etc.
I'm repeating myself, but once again I'd urge those troubled about high prices to support conventions/films fairs/CHC sale weekends, etc, as these are the occasions when you're likely come away with bags full of bargains bought at prices that remind you of the 'good old days'!
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 17, 2017, 10:14 AM:
I agree with Adrian. As I start to decide which titles I will be saying goodbye to at the next CineSea, I know I could make more on eBay but there's a pleasure to be derived from personally handing a print over to a fellow collector at a fair price.
Doug
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 10:17 AM:
All I can say Adrian, you clearly haven't seen the screenshots then!
No blue, no unsteadiness.
Why sell any Doug?????
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2017, 11:00 AM:
Andrew - I looked for screenshots of the two copies of Speed currently on offer but these don't appear to have any.
I'm not saying that there's always risk - you might buy from a reliable seller who offers comprehensive information, but otherwise it's clear that people differ in terms of what they consider a problem, so even a reputable seller could offer a print that they consider fine, that a collector might take issue with, particularly if the price is very high. I know from experience that screenshots I've taken sometimes make a print look better than it actually is, and I'm sure I could take some very good ones of an unsteady film!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 11:06 AM:
I was only referring to my own print Adrian. Believe me, the print quality on this one live in viewing far sappasses even the fine screenshots it produces. It is a superb print from Derann.
Everytime i see a silly price point reached in Super 8mm film collecting, with only one fairly recent exception, I can fully understand why these types of films fetch what they do.
I think the buyers involved know exactly what they are getting for their money!
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 17, 2017, 11:26 AM:
If anybody happens to go to Cinesea, and you see a Grizzly Adams print, please remember me!!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 11:38 AM:
Your Grizzly Adams quest comes up pretty much every time we are there!
I saw a 16mm 1776 there once...
I mean: that's John Adams...
-but seriously: I can't imagine this particular film showing up there and the group not figuring out a way to get it to you!
Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on March 17, 2017, 02:05 PM:
I'm puzzled as to why some of the expensive feature prints may be purchased by people who do not own a projector. Aside from packaging, do these people think that this super 8 print is a print as shown in the cinema, in other words they could give it to the projectionist at their local cinema and thread it on the 35mm machine. Do they understand that the s8 print is for a s8 projector, a domestic friendly machine, and not a professional print that they would have been seen in the cinema on an industrial machine? Do they understand that the S8 print was struck decades (in the case of Star wars) decades after the original cinema release, or do they think it is from 1977, and ex Odeon? Mind you I gather that many people think that cinemas (in film days) used to show 'big' DVDs.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 02:20 PM:
They know what they're buying Martin on all counts.
Star Wars is simply a one off in this category given it's original release cut.
I still believe most are purchased to be used, but one or two will fall into other collectors hands that simply collect Star Wars Memorabilia.
Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on March 17, 2017, 02:28 PM:
Well if most are ran, watched and enjoyed then that's a good thing. I just have this horrible thought of these things being in display cases, remaining completely inert, their origin and purpose a total mystery.
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 17, 2017, 02:28 PM:
Andrew,
Why sell any? Good question....In that Closet O' Film there are quite a few impulse purchases. I bought them, screened them and then left them on the shelf. There are prints I cherish and there are those I say hello to only when I come across them while retrieving other films. Those are the ones who deserve a more supportive owner.
Doug
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 02:35 PM:
I have many that fall into the latter category myself Doug.
I must admit though, in my case, I would still find it difficult to part with them while ever i suspected I'd still like to view them one day even one more time.
Some of the earlier collection now though, will need clearing soon I have to admit. Just too much space being taken up by these and none will be perfect prints, fade scratches, non English language etc etc.
The usual things we all build up when we first started buying budget prints etc.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 17, 2017, 05:00 PM:
I think that for Star Wars prints a dedicated Star Wars (not film) collector who wants absolutely every thing to do with the films would pay these high prices just to boast to other collectors that he has something they don't.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 17, 2017, 05:25 PM:
I think people who list films at realistic prices are generally the ones who end up selling at high prices.
Those who list at stupid start prices like these are just simpletons jumping on the bandwagon and most sensible people wont bite.
There edited correctly
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 05:25 PM:
I think I agree Tom.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 17, 2017, 05:30 PM:
Dont know what happened there Andy but ive corrected. Stupid smart phones
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 05:35 PM:
All good matey!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 05:35 PM:
This is the time to sell one with an opening bid of about 500 Euros.
-it's still an obscene price, but with what the other two are asking, it seems like a bargain!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 05:37 PM:
Mine is going nowhere Steve, that much I can say. Neither are the rest for that matter!
If I lived to 100, I would never find a better print.
Priceless, and an absolute credit to it's previous owner, just as all of his films are. Absolutely immaculate.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 06:04 PM:
It's kind of a shame, such a great print of such a mediocre movie. I guess it was as much the source material they could get as anything.
-shame "Snakes on a Plane" came out as late as it did. I'd rather have that even just for the irony!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 06:07 PM:
Tastes again Steve, something you simply cannot quantify.
Everyone's are very very different thankfully.
That's what makes the world go around!
I'd love to have seen Pulp Fiction released or Saving Private Ryan or The Shawshank Redemption but not enough thought like I did sadly for me.
At least Titanic did make it. I won't pay £1000 but I will go to my best ever price paid for a decent print with decent stripe.
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 17, 2017, 06:44 PM:
Why selll???
quote:
I bought them, screened them and then left them on the shelf. There are prints I cherish and there are those I say hello to only when I come across them while retrieving other films.
Good to read this one, Doug. This means you can escape from a circle of devils, the so-called "hoarding"
As seen from many TV reality shows, hoarders are people who think they will need those items although not knowing when. He/she feels secure when those items stay with them.
I almost fell like that until I realized there more people would cheerish with my items, plus I could make profits out of it (to fund my new purchase).
FYI, I am collecting films, vinyls and trains and I was hoarding just anything . Now, I am a bit picky to buy.
Cheers,
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 06:48 PM:
Profits again eh Winbert?
You cannot take it with you pal, and there are no pockets in shrouds!
None of us are hoarders, simply people that pick them off one print at a time dependant very much on the mood that day.
That is the basis for my reluctance to part with anything I once treasured, even if I don't watch it as much as some of my "better" prints.
Isn't it the very same with our records? I know it always was with me in my DJing days!
Can you believe I still own a copy of "Making Your Mind Up?"
I ain't boasting here, not by any means!
The Technics Sl 1210's would never forgive me!!
Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 17, 2017, 06:59 PM:
Most film collectors buy for three reasons interest in genre / actor , completists or impulse.
If you stick to the first rule and I know or have known collectors who only collect westerns or horror or Disney you will be fine.
However, when you go down the second or third reason for collecting routes you end up with shelves of films which if we are all perfectly honest we watch once when get them or every two to three years in they fall on you when you are digging though bundles of other films Now when are talking about features at £250 , £400 or heaven help us £1000 a go that as David says is a serious problem not heroin or spice but getting close.
Now in talking about Speed the film not the drug. I saw it in a collectors cinema when it came out in Super 8. Before, I saw it I was going to order it after I saw it I marked it off for life. Just to convince myself I wasn't having a bad day I bought the DVD when I got the digital option. Again after I watched it I was ready for eBay but saw Speed was going from 99p on there so handed it in to a charity shop.
I can't imagine any film collector in their right mind wanting to spend £1000 on it so either it was bumped up by a joker or as I suspect film memorabilia crazies have discovered super 8. A bit like film posters used to tear them out of cinemas throw them in the bin now they are worth thousands. Actually, if I had the room I can live wirth a reprint with no creases or pin holes.
When I was downsizing I would say 70% of my sales were to idiots who wouldn't know the back end of a projector. Coloured boxes and titles went for a fortune as did rare stuff like Tex Avery. As for Coal Black and de Seven Dwarfs I had at least a few nazis who paid silly money for a really average crap cartoon but I don't think they ever owned the equipment to project it.
Anyway watch this space for some art spot were Super 8 is announced as the next money winner for serious art collectors investors. It will make life difficult for "reel "collectors but I suspect it is a bubble and a very unpredictable one at that.
[ March 18, 2017, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Mike Newell ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 07:04 PM:
You did it once Mike, now you no longer do apparently. Speed is a decent later 90's film whether you agree or not, just like Steve would agree with you. If it were Die Hard we were discussing here, would it make a difference?
No I doubt it, people would still line up to tell me Asda had it on DVD for 99p around Christmastime!
I don't particularly like many films that collectors choose to buy, however I don't feel the need to comment on their taste or judgement.
I wonder why you do?
Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 17, 2017, 07:32 PM:
I first saw Keau Reeves in Bill and Ted the memory is etched in my head.
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 17, 2017, 07:33 PM:
There is nothing wrong to make a profit out of our hobby. At least, it works to keep my hobby alive without need to sell my kidneys, wife and kids...
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 07:35 PM:
I simply just have to WORK very very hard for my living!
That does it for me!!
Around 15 mile per 12.5 hr shift day and night!
Try it, you might just find it does you some good.
Inner cleansing, and a true reality check I find!
Remind me never ever ever to allow one single 50ft trailer to EVER land in your hands!
"I quiver in fear" of the the very fact!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 07:56 PM:
Inner cleansing?
-Most get by with a high fiber diet!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 07:57 PM:
No No No not I!
Nor Frickin Winbert I suspect!!!
You like picking up on the one liners rather than than whole context of a script, don't you Steve?
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 17, 2017, 08:05 PM:
Does this make it all better?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 08:10 PM:
Not really, Winbert has well and truly repulsed me to the Pit of my stomach!
Exactly the kind of the of collector which I am repulsed by!
It's all about the money money!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxX-QOV9tI
True collectors could not give a flying F$()
I eagerly await his reply!!!
Oh he has gone to bed, now ain't that a surprise? (NOT!!!!)
Tomorrow is another day Winbert, but believe me, I have well and truly got your card marked!!
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 17, 2017, 09:02 PM:
Jessie J was quite right when she says
quote:
It's not about the money, money, money
Unfortunately to have a super 8mm print we need money ...LOL!!
Unless the government starts to include super 8mm as a basic human need so there is a subsidy scheme for it ...mega LOL!!!
Let us make it right that this is a hobby. There some people fund it from their hard daily works, and some other just simply selling his/her items to fund for another purchase.
There is nothing wrong with that. Only hoarding attitude is the problem, something we need to anticipate it not to fall into this phenomenon.
I remember David Hardy has once started a discussion about this very issue not a long ago.
Collector or hoarder
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 09:04 PM:
bery or very ? Bring it on!!
Never once upon my death bed will you EVER EVER come close to some of of your wildest fantasies! I Promise YOU that!
I absolutely loathe with a passion, people with your attitude!
Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on March 18, 2017, 12:28 AM:
What I've noticed personally is that my attitude towards money can change quite a bit depending on the circumstances. I've had the experience of having had very little to spare, - searching for change in the couch cushions etc.
This was after having a period of relative comfort. I could go out to eat when I wanted, took a nice vacation every year, maybe even two. Had newer car and a nice little townhouse. Then things changed. Let me tell you it was much easier for me to not care about money when I had enough that I didn't need to.
In both times of comfort and scarcity I was working quite hard. And even when I didn't have a lot to spare, I still found some money to donate to causes I cared about and I donated my time as well.
Like Winbert, I've definitely sold some of my personal items in order to supplement the money I have available for my hobbies. And I honestly I can find it cleansing to decrease the amount of stuff I have around. Some things I give away or sell dirt cheap. I try not to throw anything away that someone else might have a use for.
I'm never looking to make a huge profit but what it can come down to is that if I want something, it means I'm going to have to sell something else. I see that as responsible management of our household finances and limited space, - not a moral failing.
An alternative would be to get another job on the side, but then I'd have less time for my family and my hobbies. A wise person once told me than no one on their deathbed ever wishes that they had spent more of their life working.
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 18, 2017, 05:23 AM:
Thank you Tom for your balanced and polite reply on this thread full of otherwise increasingly rude and insulting to our intelligence posts.
My personal scenario is very close to yours and I suspect many others on here too that no longer post for fear of personal attack and unfair criticism.
Any discussion on the right to spend money and how people make their money in the first place, along with the moralistic / amateur mental analysis that some current and ex-collectors feel they have to come up with for anyone who still enjoys this hobby, has no place at all on these forums.
My recommendation - stop replying to any posts that are written to obviously antagonise and cause argument - with a bit of luck the regular writers of such drivel will then sink to the bottom and disappear along with their un-responded to posts.
Kevin
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on March 18, 2017, 06:07 AM:
I know many collectors, in film and other areas, who are serious about their hobby and have no problem with the word "profit".
They are happy to move items on at a profit in order to fund their hobby. I am of exactly the same mind.
With respect, I feel that it's ridiculous to suggest that being a "true collector" and wanting to sell films on at a profit are incompatible.
Andrew, I don't know you and you're probably a very nice fella. However, you should try reining it in a little at times. I'm not at all sure what Winbert has done to deserve the tone of your last few posts directed at him.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 18, 2017, 07:23 AM:
More than once I've had a collector offer me a film at a price that was telling me "I want you to have this film", a couple of times they've even given them to me.
I've bought many bust-out retail too.
-Their films, their choice.
I have no problem with what Winbert wants to do, but you see that's not particularly important because they are his choices and pretty much none of my business.
If I didn't like what he was asking for a print, I'd have these choices:
1) Negotiate
2) Walk away.
-Not an issue.
I don't have any more right to set his price than he has to force me to buy.
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 18, 2017, 12:04 PM:
I thought today might be the start of a nice, relaxing weekend....I see I was wrong. I will be posting a new topic in a bit about completely unnecessary, caustic replies.
Insert shot of sped up clock hands, calendar pages falling and time lapse of numerous sunrises and sunsets.
Done. Please see Rule #1? Glad You asked.
For now, this thread remains closed.
Doug
[ March 18, 2017, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Douglas Meltzer ]
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