8mm Forum: 1600 Ft Supaspools

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Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 14, 2017, 05:22 PM:

Hello everyone,I put a 16ooft supaspool take up spool on my Elmo st-1200 projector and three quarter way through it started to slow down and then stop turning.I was told the elmo st-1200 could take that capacity.Am i doing harm to my belovered projector,regards John.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 14, 2017, 05:28 PM:

You are indeed John.

My advice is not to use these spools on ANY projector or FILM that is of value to you! [Wink]

Here is one mans quote of his experience with these here...
Not mine as i'd be banned! [Smile]

quote:

Some years ago Tony Churcher in the UK produced some spools which he called SupaSpools. They had the same overall size of an Elmo 1200' spool but because they had a small centre it was said they would hold 1600' of film.

Tony was a regular visitor to the Tadleigh Film Convention and I bought a couple of spools from him. However, they were very heavy, even without any film, I'm not sure of the metal used but they were actually bolted together.

I tried them on my Elmo ST1200 but they failed to take up the whole full spool, it just slowed down and then stopped. I complained to Tony who said that perhaps a belt needed renewing.

I finally sold them, and then at Ealing bought a few of the proper Elmo 1200' alloy spools and they are still performing well to this day.

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 14, 2017, 05:32 PM:

Thanks for the quick response Andrew.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 14, 2017, 05:33 PM:

...Safe than sorry! [Wink]

An Engineering Masterpiece...Not! [Big Grin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYTFY6c9AcI

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 14, 2017, 05:48 PM:

Ha Ha great video. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 14, 2017, 05:50 PM:

If there's a wrong way to make a spool.... [Big Grin]

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 14, 2017, 05:55 PM:

Thanks again Andrew,no more of them spools(I thought they were heavy).

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 14, 2017, 05:59 PM:

Weigh it in john, it's the only way you will ever get your money back and they weigh about as much as a small hatchback!

Keeerrching!! [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 14, 2017, 07:55 PM:

The Elmo 1200 ft reels are very light, being made from aluminum alloy. I once had some 1200ft reels made from steel and they were about 3X the weight and I stopped using them. I can imagine the weight of 1600ft of film on 1200ft steel reels, something I am sure the GS1200 motors and plastic gears were not designed to handle,

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 15, 2017, 02:23 AM:

The comment quoted by Andrew was made by me.
The fault of Tony Churcher's SupaSpools was that they were just too heavy.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 05:57 AM:

As well as being scientifically built incorrectly.

As I'm sure everyone has noticed, a 200ft spool has a smaller hub than 800ft or 1200ft one.
There is a very good reason as to why this is and why this arrangement is completely necessary.
I don't believe Tony must have quite grasped this concept unfortunately, and as such there have been many mechanisms and films damaged as a direct consequence of this unfortunately.

Anybody who believes 1600ft of Super 8mm film can fit onto a 12" diameter spool is sadly mistaken.
Even the Taylor plastic equivalents are not ideal but are far better to use on machines capable of accepting 2200ft spools or larger, than the TC type.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 15, 2017, 06:38 AM:

we do have a few of the plastic 1600 spools, (Andrew will be aware of this), we have some metal ones but none of the ones we used ever had a take up problem. This could be a sign that the rewind belt is, (not worn) but just showing a little age or possibly the belt and its pulley grooves need a good old clean.
The problem i found with the aluminium ones was the awful noise they made as they reached the final 400 feet or so. The one that Andy sent me was a 100% improvement [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 07:37 AM:

If only they were Aluminium Tom, then you'd stand half a chance! [Big Grin]

At the end of the day, the best and largest easily accessible spools you can place on any 1200ft machine are either the Elmo type or as a close second the Posso (Beaulieu) ones.
Anything else is a compromise although the plastic Fuji type also run extremely true and are very nicely made.

I am certain the ones Wittner's sell are outstanding also, but these cost more than the film you place on them in almost all circumstances!

[ August 15, 2017, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 15, 2017, 09:58 AM:

Only tried one of those 1600ft spools, didn't like them. Also had problems with Grasso 1200ft spools (black). They never seemed to run true. I bought some 1200ft from PRC of America these were always OK. Don't think I ever had any plastic ones from Taylor Reel, but have 2400ft metal ones. These are steel and heavy only used them with the Spondon Extender or my Fumeo.

quote:
As I'm sure everyone has noticed, a 200ft spool has a smaller hub than 800ft or 1200ft one.

That in itself opens a few questions. I have some 200 and 400ft spools with small and some with a much larger hub.

I find the larger hub on the take-up is much better.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 15, 2017, 03:03 PM:

Can anyone post a photo or two of these beasts?

You could always use one on the supply side and a Tayloreel one for takeup, but it sounds like they were too abrasive to be trusted.

Speaking of Tayloreel's version, I've always wondered who came up with the idea of them holding 1600'. I did temporarily get one to do that once: slightly thinner polyester film with no mag stripes to add thickness. To. The. Edge.

More like 1400'.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 03:26 PM:

You're spot on Bill, even on the thinnest of stock, far nearer to 1400ft than ever 1600ft capacity.

I will look through my hard drive to see if I have one of these "beasts" on photo for you. [Big Grin]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 15, 2017, 03:36 PM:

oop, i meant steel, we do have around 20 of the Elmo 1200 spools, these are by far the very best. The only 1600s we have is one supply for reel two of T2, (the one you sent me Andy, part one is on an Elmo 1200), the plastic take up for this one movieing and two wobbly plastic 1600 that slap the projectors arms. Only good for display on the wall in my den. [Wink]

|I have also discovered that brother has two of those black ones to. not sure where or when i bought them [Confused]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 04:03 PM:

I still have quite a few of these when different films have come on them to begin with.
Derann used to to sell loads of these and I bought around 5 in my first stint in the hobby.

The worst thing I ever did was to mount Mary Poppins onto two of these buggers first time around, only for the take up spool to stop abruptly at around 1200ft on my then ST1200!

I had an audience back in those days and the show was forced to end there and then, a disaster!

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on August 15, 2017, 07:48 PM:

Not only that but the ones I had never ran "true". Nothing like hearing the sound of the film coming off the feed reel with a nice little 'fffftttt" sound every 3 seconds or so!

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 18, 2017, 01:04 PM:

Thanks for the photo, Andrew. It LOOKS cool, but we all know the villains always wear black!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 18, 2017, 01:36 PM:

They were just garbage in every which way possible, Alan and Bill.

No one has yet reminded us all here, of the fifteen minutes required at the end of each reel, to concoct some kind of Heath Robinson device to somehow find a way to feed a super 8mm tail through a 12mm solitary hole bored into the side plates of these spools in order to then get the tail down into the slot inside that tiny tiny core, prior to rewinding.

Anyone who ever mastered the art of doing this repeatedly and successfully should have received a global award for dexterity and could now, probably text 150 words per minute on the world's smallest mobile phone keypad!

They were simply terrible in every which way!
Edward Tweezer hands... eat your heart out. [Big Grin]

[ August 18, 2017, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 22, 2017, 02:34 AM:

You won't believe this but I really like Supaspools, both the 1600ft and the larger Long Play 2.400ft versions.

In the case of the 1600ft ones, there are some that run true (about 1 in 10) from new which I keep for use on the Elmo & Spondon using a penny washer over the spool hub to provide a tighter fit to the projector spool spindle. Only possible on projectors with flip over or screw on spool retaining clips though.

In the case of the really wonky ones I chuck out the hub and use the side plates to make 16mm and 35mm spools for shorts and trailers - the hubs made from smaller 16mm spools or wood in the case of 35mm.

If anyone finds they are considering throwing away their 1600ft Supaspools I will have them - happy to pay you the postage cost (UK only though) plus a couple of quid for each spool. Ideally sent in bulk rather than one at a time!

I never had any problems with the 2,400ft versions especially as they were the only way to watch a full 2400ft feature in one hit on the Beaulieu which normally has a 2,200ft capacity using the genuine largest diameter Beaulieu spools.

I've put my hard hat on ready for your likely responses!

Kevin

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on August 22, 2017, 03:41 AM:

There was an advert in Film for the Collector #12 (Jan 1989) from Tony for these. That one claimed "New improved design, black coated aluminium" so perhaps he was made aware of the weight problems of the originals. £16.95 including box with £2 postage.

I've never tried them so can't say if there were 2 types.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 22, 2017, 04:10 AM:

The only ones I have ever received this time around in the hobby, or purchased new originally from Derann circa 1988, were made of very heavy steel.
That's not to say Aluminium ones don't exist as I simply don't know the answer to that one, but what I can say is that if they do, then they are much scarcer than the original type.

Kevin, it is my turn finally to do you a good deed.
I will send you a few in the post once I am off work and get chance to sift them out from my lock up.

I may keep one back to use as a patio umbrella base next summer. For sure a Gale force wind won't shift that umbrella! [Big Grin]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 22, 2017, 04:54 AM:

I bought my SupaSpools direct from Tony at the Tadley Film Convention in April 1997. I assumed they were steel as they were so heavy.
It does seem strange that Tony was advertising aluminium spools back in January 1989. If they were so, why paint them black?
Was Tony trying to shift old stock?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 22, 2017, 05:38 AM:

I don't know what my Supaspools are made from but I've just compared a large one (2400 ft) with a Fumeo spool of the same size and the Supaspool is lighter. The spool is painted in black.

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 22, 2017, 10:18 AM:

Hello everyone,is it possible to put a 1600ft full supaspool on the feed arm of a Beaulieu 708 and use a Beaulieu 2200ft as the take up with out harming the projector,regards john.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on August 22, 2017, 10:19 AM:

For the most part scanning through this thread I agree with the general topic. I would like to suggest that, with 15 shows per year or more - it's a good idea to change the drive belts every 5 years.

I ran st 1200 HD machines for years and never had trouble with the plastic spools small hub. But I generally do not use them for projector arms.

I have 6 Elmo aluminum reels for the projector arms. All other reels are used only for film storage.

When I run a show, I spend a little extra time transferring to the Elmo 1200 foot reels and then rewinding back on to the storage reels. This is all done at the rewind bench only the Elmo branded reels went on the projector arms.

The above was from 1995 to 2002.

Fast forward to current time and screenings:

I now use GS 1200 machines on my long play Tower units which I designed and custom built. I am now using 2000 foot Goldberg reels above and below the GS 1200. For those of you familiar with the Spondon Spooler, my device runs much like that, but the reels are above and below the projector.

The ST 1200 would do well with a secondary spooling system. It allows the machine to just pull the film through, and in theory the energy required for take up is now given to producing picture and sound. Thus - projector runs better and lasts longer.

I've been a member here for a long time search me out I think there are posts of my long play system here.

Anybody who has saved pictures of my setup has my permission to post them here.

Chip Gelmini

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 22, 2017, 10:38 AM:

Well Chip, ironically, when I fist obtained my Spondon LPU I tried running it with all of the projectors I had at that time and the only double sprocketed machines I found I could not use the LPU with, were the Elmo ST1200 I had and an Elmo ST1200 HD m/o that I also had at that time.

The floating dancer simply could not cope with the take up additional drive at any diameter spool I tried.
Even 1200ft spools would not work successfully on the LPU for me when using the Spondon with the Elmo ST1200,s without the dancer floating repeatedly up and down and never setting still.
The soundtrack was truly awful for Wow as you can imagine in these conditions and the lower loop was lost frequently.

Had I have continued to experiment this way with this combination, almost certainly I would have caused lots of sprocket damage to the films.

The two machines that worked well that I had at the time with the LPU were a S938 and a T610.

Any single sprocket projector equally, would not run with the LPU, for obvious reasons.

To John regarding Supaspools on the front arm of a Beaulieu,..
Certainly not if it has nylon spindle hubs and also not even if it has metal spindle hubs but for other reasons regarding tracking over the input guide.

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 22, 2017, 10:45 AM:

Thanks once again for your help and quick reply Andrew.Regards John.

Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on August 22, 2017, 11:14 AM:

I've still got superspools with some of my 4x400ft features on them and on the spondon - no trouble - so it has to be horses for courses.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 22, 2017, 11:18 AM:

If you have the metal spindle hubs and somehow you can get the Supaspool to run perfectly true to the input guide John, then go for it!

I have never found this to be the case though sadly John, not even for the 1600ft variety let alone 2400ft.

The Spondon can run Supaspools no problem. The additional distance from the spool edge to the input guide actually helps with these reels. Just not with use on a ST1200 and the Spondon.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 22, 2017, 11:31 AM:

I'm pretty sure you're all aware of the differences between the Tony Churcher "SupaSpools" and the plastic Tayloreel 1600'ers, but just want to clarify for the uninitiated that the Tayloreels are a fairly good product: lightweight enough to not cause any problems on a reasonable projector, and a soft plastic that doesn't abrade the film edge when it scrapes. And because of the design, it does scrape, which I've never had a problem with. Other than the fact that striped acetate film is too thick to get 1600' on it, it's worthwhile. Reportedly Steve Osbourne has sold hundreds of them over the years and still has new stock.

By comparison, a steel Goldberg reel weighs a LOT and scrapes more harshly if untrue or flange binding, although is otherwise great to use. But only as a supply reel.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 22, 2017, 11:40 AM:

I completely agree Bill. [Smile]

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 22, 2017, 11:46 AM:

Hello everyone,can you get plastic 1600 Supaspools in the UK,if so where,regards John.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 22, 2017, 02:15 PM:

In my ST1200HD days (four of them at one point) I used to mount the Supaspool onto the projector spindle then place a penny washer onto the spindle shaft, close the spool retaining clip and there you go (went) it really did help a lot. Any side scraping onto the spool arms was fixed by placing a length of the soft felt side of self adhesive black velcro to the spool arm which then gave a smooth and silent edge for any even just slightly wonky spool to rub against.

The actual weight of the spool is not always the problem, the challenge to the projector is the extra torque needed to take up and pull in film from a much smaller hub than the projector was designed for. Beaulieus, Fumeos, long play units etc. should have no difficulty with this, but any Elmo ST1200, Yelco, Fujicascope etc. will need to have belts in top condition, any cork friction pads without undue wear, and possibly the torque springs on the rear of the spindles closed in by a turn or two to provide more friction. Those concerned with these types of mal-adjustments should really stick with the Elmo and other 1200ft larger size hub spools.

Andrew - thank you for your kind offer I really would like your Supaspools and having read your posts it may provide you some relief to be shot of them from your cine kit. I will still send something extra to you and cover the postage cost as they must be worth a few quid if sold on Ebay.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 22, 2017, 06:30 PM:

Absolutely no need Kevin. Its my pleasure to be able to return to an extent some of your generousity and kindness.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on August 24, 2017, 12:38 PM:

I have two things to say about this so here goes:

PART ONE:

THE ELMO REEL ARM SHAFT

The black plastic at the very end that bends over to keep the reel on the shaft. Did you know that YES there IS a reason why it goes both ways. And not "just because it does."

If you run the projector in forward mode the the black plastic open not up or down you will notice it goes up and down as it rotates. That is, it is NOT perfectly centered or smooth.

This is adjusted for different sized flanges. A steel flange will be thinner, so you need more grip. A plastic flange is thicker so you need less grip.

THE KEY SLOT

Of the three keyed slots on the reel, there is always ONE that will turn the reel more true then the others. To determine which one, you much try each one.

With the plastic lever closed in the correct position, rotate the reel quickly with your right hand and at the same time, put pointer finger pressure on top of the reel between the two flanges. Do this until the reel spins the best true as described here.

Next remove the reel and use a marker. Put a red or black dot right above that singled key slot. Then align the color to the pin and you will have the best true reel position.

That is if you got what I just wrote. It does work here for me.

PART TWO:

OVERALL FUTURE SOLUTION:

Some of you might be familiar with the brass Neumade super 8 adapters on the market. Popular for hand crank rewinds. What we need is a new version of these.

I think the future way of solving this issue is "threaded adapters" which could be set on long play drive units and perhaps custom made to replace projector arm shafts.

The adapter is connected to the shaft via allen nut.

The reel is placed on a solid shank.

The wing nut is threaded and snugged against the reel.

The reel is nice and tight and has 360 degree contact with the outside flange. Pending which key slot is used, perfect true rotation can be obtained.

For those of you who doubt me, I have such an item right now on my long play units up and low shafts and my rewind bench cranks. They are to say "awesome." is an understatement.

Customizing is simple, as well. It is merely a half inch bolt as described above. A precision 5/16 hole is drilled through the center of the bolt which allows fitting on my 35mm shafts. It is secured by a standard allen nut much like the Neumade brass adapters some of you might be using. A friend of mine who works in a metal machine shop did the work for me and I will have to pin him down to make more of these. After this is done and I have tested on my own machines then I might offer them to you here if you would want to change them.

I can guarantee that if I get them made this will change how any sound Elmo super 8 projector handles reels on the built in shafts. It's only a matter of time before it happens. You will remove the arm cover, remove the Elmo shaft, replace with the adapter, and replace the cover.

A roll pin makes contact with the key slot in the reel. A large finger nut attached to the thread and applies even pressure around the outside flange.

In the future I plan to have some of these made for the Elmo take up and supply arm shafts but that could be awhile just due to other things going on with me right now. Just imagine how that could be........

And the reason for all of this is simple. There isn't a reel out there that can spin true on an Elmo shaft no matter which key slot you choose to use (some are better than others - the key slots that is). This in part of the Elmo design. And it is just awful. And to make it better, Elmo invented high priced reels that would work somewhat better - rather than change the design of the shaft that is the cause of the issue.

One of my first super 8 sound projectors was the Bell and Howell 1733 BZ - much like the later 600 model. The one thing I did like about this machine was the take up shafts. Like the big brother 16mm school projector, the shaft was ball bearing spring loaded. Your reel snapped on and in to position and didn't move unless you took it off. That was a GOOD design.

I will shoot pictures of these but will forward to someone else who has the patients of putting them on Brad's board within this thread because I am not going to waste time trying to upload when it is impossible for me to do so.

Any takers to post the images? Send me an email chipgelmini (at) yahoo (dot) com I will happily send them to you.

Edit August 25: Pictures are ready for emailing. Any takers?

Chip G

[ August 25, 2017, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Chip Gelmini ]

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 25, 2017, 03:26 PM:

Chip, you learn something new every day! I didn't know the spindle lock was asymmetrical, will be looking into this.

JOHN - The Reel Image (Steve Osbourne) ships overseas if you can't find a local supplier of Tayloreels.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on August 25, 2017, 04:35 PM:

I think the trick with the spindle lock is to have it FLUSH against the selected reel. So, make sure if folding down that it goes straight down to 6 O'clock and that most of the lock is against the flange of the reel.

If it went down and pointed to 5 O'clock that would not be right.

As perhaps mentioned in this thread already, you can also try using a small washer against the flange and the spindle lock closed flush against the washer. The washer should float on the end of the shaft so it needs to be 1/2" diameter shaft hole, but not to thick of a washer to allow the spindle lock to close properly.

I have been running super 8 for many years and I have studied the best way to make a reel spin true. The more true, the better. One thing that I insist makes this possible is that one favorite keyed slot within the flange. Find the one that spins the most true. Mark it, and use it all the time.

The reason for true rotation: Less contact with the edges of the film against either side flange of the reel. When this happens, the rubbing of the film to flange slows down the rotation. Watch the green plastic under the lamphouse. You will see when the film makes flange contact the film droops in the green plastic. Where there is no contact the film is tight in the plastic channel.

The constant touch and no touch producing droop and no droop results in capstan roller movement (WOW) and unstable sound. Add some weak or worn rubber belts and it gets worse.

And, ALWAYS make sure your rubber belts and bushings to the shutter wheel are in good strong condition. Especially on the design of the ST 1200 and this includes all versions of the model. And don't forget there are two kinds of belts, too. The O RING type, and POLY V square. You MUST match the belt that was made for the machine.

CG

Posted by John Fields Smith (Member # 5879) on August 25, 2017, 08:39 PM:

Thanks Bill, i will try reel image,many thanks.

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