8mm Forum: Using xenon bulb is actually more ecoomical than halogen, true?

This is topic Using xenon bulb is actually more ecoomical than halogen, true? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011674

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 19, 2017, 11:50 PM:

I was told that a xenon bulb can last between 2000-3000 hours, somethinh that common on today's LED projector.

A halogen (HLX) bulb has 50 hours lifespan. Although it is stated 50 hours but usually can go more (70-100 hours).

So, say it is 100 hours, this means we need 30 HLX bulb to reach 3000 hours.

A xenon bulb (330 watt or 550 watt) is about $190-200

An HLX bulb is $8 * 30 = $240.

So when we get brighter projection it is also cheaper using a xenon bulb.

Is it actually the case?

Cheers,

[ August 20, 2017, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 20, 2017, 02:08 AM:

no idea Winbert, i just chenge them when they blow [Big Grin]

(or when they get dark) [Wink]

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 20, 2017, 03:38 AM:

I'm not sure of the exact numbers for each lamp Winbert but usually an Elmo GS1200 Xenon and Elmo 16CL Xenon will give you 1000 hours of use. The lamps for the GS1200 Xenon from Ugo in Italy were about £200 each the last time I enquired about them.

Even more economical though are the newer HID xenon lamps - for about £60 the Xenpow HID150 in my modified Elmo GS1200 gives up to 1000 hours although I would expect some brightness reduction in the final 20% of its lifespan.

I recommend the HID mod to everyone rather than sourcing an original Xenon lamp projector it is the best move I ever made (financially and operationally) equipment wise.

Kevin.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 20, 2017, 03:56 AM:

I agree with Kevin.
I have a Xenpow HID 150 lamp in my Bell & Howell 644.
But don't forget, the cost of conversion is not cheap, it's not just a question of putting in the new lamp.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 20, 2017, 06:42 AM:

The downside with halogen bulb, after passing it's orifinal lifespan, the light will be yellowish which is not good for movie screening. So, we may have the bulb still on after 80 hours but not in the max brightness or color tone.

There is at Ebay now someone selling the original xenon bulb for Elmo CX330 and CX550 for $190/each now.

Regarding modification to Xenon bulb, I saw somebody in Thailand showing that in Facebook. I don't know if this is what Kevin has said. It seems not that complicated to me.

Cheers,

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 20, 2017, 07:59 AM:

As said, the only problem with the xenon bulbs is the sheer costs involved. Even if you have a projector fitted with these as standard the bulbs are way too pricey for the average needs [Wink]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 20, 2017, 10:07 AM:

There is an alternative lamp, that can be adapted for most 8mm projectors, as bright as the gs1200 with a three blade shutter, may be get bit more with the two blade, very near to the beaulieu 708 el output, cost less than £50.00 all in.....

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on August 20, 2017, 10:15 AM:

From what I remember reading, the xenon lamp in the Fumeo Super 8 (the one based on a 16mm machine) had the best value lamp. I think it was a35mm one with 5,000hr life.

The review was in Film for the Collectore No 18. The projector was the Fumeo 9145/x500 with a 500w horizontal xenon with a life of "in excess of 2,000hrs). In 1991 it cost £6,500 made to order!!!

[ August 20, 2017, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Brian Fretwell ]

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 20, 2017, 03:38 PM:

The advantage of using the HID150 lamp is its brightness, easy availability, long life and low cost - I pickled up four for £160 from Ebay, all new sealed and unused - that's basically 4000 hours of crisp white light, on my modified GS1200 which was previously a halogen 200w ESC based machine it is now as bright as my sold Elmo GS1200 Xenon ever was. These lamps have the advantage of being almost perfectly pre focussed for the 8mm frame, yes a suitable ballast power supply does have to be fitted, and they are best suited to feature length shows as once they are lit and warmed up re-igniting should be avoided to preserve the lamp life.

I would estimate about £350 would cover the parts and labour costs by our favourite UK service experts (in my case Mr Bill Parsons).

Tom - flog a couple more Raise The Titanic digests on Ebay and you will almost be there! - I'm pretty sure your ST1200HD could be modded as it has a shutter (used to dowse the lamp in standby) so a power supply, lamp and permanently on fan is all you will need. Sincerely I can't imagine even considering watching a 'scope film now on a standard halogen projector these HID lamps make such a difference to any bigger screen shows.

My next plan is to modify (myself this time) a recently purchased Elmo 16AA 16mm projector to HID just need more spare time to start and finish it. Again once done it should be on a par brightness wise with the Elmo 16CL xenon I sold.

Kevin

[ September 05, 2017, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Clark ]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 20, 2017, 03:50 PM:

I must admit though my halogen lamp more than suffices for my own home screenings, I've long since had a plan to attempt to modify my twin track Beaulieu to incorporate the HID 150w Xenpow lamp and ballast as was already done once by a previous owner to great success.

It would make the machine much better for scope viewings and enable it also to be used in larger rooms than a living room should the need ever arise.
I've already pondered over the various methods of fitting a successful reliable automated internal dowser and a neat way to fit some quiet cooling fans into the ceiling of the lamp house without destroying the lamp house cover or its existing lamp house louvres.

I'd like the aesthetics of the machine to remain unchanged externally.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 20, 2017, 04:14 PM:

Andrew I can appreciate the brightness of the standard Halogen lamp Beaulieus having owned the twin track and stereo models myself before. The thought of a HID150 added to the Beaulieu fast pull down and two blade shutter mode must surely be tempting and make you wonder just how much better your 'scope shows would look?

The way I see it is this - we basically use the most expensive software possible - up to hundreds of pounds spent on one full Super 8 feature - so a one off modification spend to make the hardware as bright and white lit as possible is money very well spent. Especially with these lamps as they are used worldwide in multiple applications, stage lighting etc. they are a safe long term affordable lighting solution.

Almost silent cooling fans could easily fit inside the Beaulieu cowling without the need to butcher it as these lamps run no where near as hot as a HTI or the older short arc Xenons.

If you want a suitable dowser I have one you are welcome to for free, new and boxed, originally for a Bell & Howell 16mm machine it can easily be fitted into the Beaulieu as you have one of the largest lamp spaces of all the super 8 models.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 20, 2017, 04:28 PM:

Thank you very much Kevin that is extremely generous of you!

It is the prospect of a relatively noiseless discreet additional fan that ultimately appeals to me regarding this project.

All of the benefits of traditional Xenon lamp power with none of the drawbacks.

Let me know Kevin if you feel the Dowser design could be automated using an actuator or solenoid etc etc.

I'd want the dowser to safeguard the machine and films by automatically covering the gate and film once the rotary main control function knob either returns to the off position or moves upwards in the "play silent" or "play sound" position.
I'm hoping the original power supply to the halogen lamp could provide me with a suitable power supply for a solenoid etc once rectified so the dowser would work in a similar manner as the existing lamp currently does now.

If you feel it could incorporate an actuator or solenoid, I'd be most interested in your Dowser but of course I'd have to give you something for it thanks.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 20, 2017, 05:09 PM:

No I insist it is a freebie Andrew - I bought it to try in the Fumeo but there was not enough room between the lamp and shutter on the 9119 - I recommend you cut a small aluminium or similar disk to fit in the heat filter circle section of this dowser if you want 100% dowsing - I will sound like a right bodger now but as the Beaulieu and Fumeo use a rotary control knob I had envisaged using nylon shutter cord between the dowser and projector control knob shaft so it would just pull out of the frame area when the lamp on position was reached. Probably just as well I didn't use this part, a solenoid will be the best way to go - just a thought you could rectify the halogen lamp supply to give you a low dc voltage to pull in a solenoid perhaps?

I've also found (time to rummage again) a soft cover for your Goko 8008 editor - I can't remember if you needed one if yes let me know.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 20, 2017, 05:21 PM:

Thanks again Kevin and the Goko cover, you already sent one a while back thanks.

Yes 7.5 vdc should be enough to power a small actuator or solenoid and with a 10 amp supply behind it, no shortage of overall power for this simple low power application.
I could even use a small step up transformer first if I needed to have a 12V D.C. supply for a suitable device.

I see no reason as to one way or another, why this supply wouldn't be perfect for this application and already configured correctly from the main switch, which of course, is always a bonus! 😊😊

I'd like to mount the ballast in a separate plinth beneath the machine if possible, to act as a base unit for the projector as there simply isn't the room inside the machine to mount one of these anywhere.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 20, 2017, 05:40 PM:

That is where my GS1200 mod worked out well too Andrew - this was originally a barely used GS1200 TC - a telecine playback only model with a one position on / off lamp switch but unlike the usual GS it has no dowser at all so Bill did a marvellous job as always fitting a GS1200 dowser and wiring the new HID lamp on off into the original on off switch. These lamps take about three minutes to reach full brightness then stay rock steady white and bright for any show length. On the GS cooling is straightforward too as the built in fan motor is re-wired to be on all the time - still much quieter than the GS1200 xenon fan motor. Just to stop you worrying I am pleased to advise all the guide roller mods have been fitted and the film path is safe and scratch free. The mileage on this projector was so low it is like having a brand new machine Bill has done me proud and I am delighted with it. It also has inbuilt pulse synch for 24fps or 25fps switchable ideal for synch playback although I can rarely be bothered to do that these days I just like you run a few reels in as hassle free a way as is possible.

Dowser will be posted in a day or so. Off to sleep now.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 20, 2017, 05:45 PM:

Great to hear regarding the mods to guides and rollers and i'd expect nothing less from you of course Kevin. [Big Grin]

Bill's work is unsurpassable here as always!

Sleep well, speak soon and thanks once again.
A very kind gesture that as always, I am most appreciative of, my friend. [Smile]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 21, 2017, 02:47 AM:

It is most important that a dowser is fitted with the Xenpow conversion, otherwise the life of the lamp would be seriously diminished.
It is also not a good idea to restrike a warm lamp.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2017, 03:01 AM:

Life diminished?????

I'm somewhat perplexed Maurice sorry?

My number one reason for fitting a dowser is to allow the lamp the time to reach full working temperature before exposing it to the gate and only when the film is running.

Alternatively, every film would need a 3 minute leader while the lamp reached temperature and you would have to keep switching the lamp supply on and off,..which of course, just like any video projector lamp, you should never do with these type of lamps.

Once powered on, the lamp should remain illuminated of course, for the entire session time that day, irrespective of whether a film is being projected or not.

The additional internal lamp house hood fan should be wired to be permanently running whenever there is a supply to HID Lamp.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 21, 2017, 03:54 AM:

Kevin, i'll have the goko cover off you, as I don't have one for either of my machines. Let me know how much you want please.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 21, 2017, 05:05 AM:

Hello Paul

My brain jumped into gear when I woke up this morning I remembered it was you that wanted a Goko cover - will be posted today and it's a freebie pleased to know it is going to another dear cine friend.

Andrew - your most straightforward route to fan cooling will be a 240vac fan with the supply taken from the projector on / off switching. The fan needs to be on all the time anyway so even using the original lamp ac line rectified for a dc fan would not have been ideal.

Try this one for size and perhaps also refer to Bill to see if he thinks it will shift enough air:

https://www.airconspares.com/product /858/Square-Axial-Fan-Motor-120mm-x-38mm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIupvCzofo1QIV7b_tCh3EDg5hEAYYByABEgL3mfD_BwE

I recall the Beaulieu twin track lamp cover vents simply pull out from the side of the cover so a mount made for the fan to the same size as the original vent guides will be the way to go. Dowser parcel will be posted today too.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2017, 05:08 AM:

Appreciated sincerely Kevin. [Smile]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 21, 2017, 05:40 AM:

Sorry. I may not have phrased myself very clearly.

Once the Xenpow HID 150 has been struck up, it takes about a minute or so to warm up sufficiently to start projection. At the end of each reel the lamp stays on. This is why a dowser needs to be fitted to obscure the light from the film.

As I have said before, my 644 has been rewired to open/close the dowser from the main control switch when it is turned to LAMP on/off. (The lamp itself has its own on/off switch fitted on the panel by the amplifier knobs.) The old blower was removed to make room for the ballast. The original condenser lens was modified to be the new lamp-holder. The still (perforated) safety shutter was re-fitted with a solid piece of metal to act as the dowser.

A small fan was installed and connected to the mains input, this runs all the time the projector is connected to the mains.

The lamp is only physically switched off at the end of the show, this will prolong its life. Such a lamp should only be struck up when cold.

The lens was exchanged for an f1.2 (original was an f1.4). This has now produced a superb projector!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2017, 05:42 AM:

Understood thanks Maurice and it sounds like another fabulous machine you have there! [Smile]

Given that you are using this lamp on a 16mm machine, I can only imagine just how bright the image from one of these lamps would look with all of that power focussed through the tiny Super 8mm gate along with a fast pull down claw and two bladed shutter and with a f1.1 Schneider lens!

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 21, 2017, 06:38 AM:

Thank you Kevin, very kind of you, I can take the Tesco's bag off it now......

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 21, 2017, 04:53 PM:

Sorry a bit of OTT, Kevin, before you post it could you take a pict of the soft cover please. I never seen that one before.

I have the same editor but to show its physical beauty I made my own using transperent pvc (a plastic sheet we usually use for dinner table) [Wink]

cheers,

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 22, 2017, 02:52 AM:

I had the chance to go to the post office yesterday Winbert so I was too quick for a picture of the Goko cover for you - perhaps Paul will post a picture when it arrives with him.

I can describe it though - semi transparent / clear plastic in colour and tight fitting - rather like like an oversized condom for cine equipment use.

Andrew - I would allow three minutes for maximum light output to be reached and as Maurice says definitely no re-igniting a warm lamp.

One thing to watch out for in the case of modifying an Elmo or magnetic sound projector - I originally bought the Phillips PSU used on Maurice's 16mm Bell & Howell and Bill came to the conclusion it was not suitable as it produced huge amounts of interference picked up audibly by the Elmo amplifier. Whether this is an Elmo amp trait or from the magnetic head side of the audio system I don't now, but once Bill replaced the Philips for the usual brand of PSU he uses the problem was fixed.

The difference between using the Xenpow HID150 on Super 8 and 16mm is not what you may think - the light source is the same in both cases and the lamp positioned to allow for the beam to hit the full 16mm frame but whichever way it is calculated the light doesn't get any brighter or darker due to the frame size. Sadly this lamp wont illuminate a full 35mm frame so if and when I get the chance to modify the Spectra I will try a non reflector HID lamp like Paul's mounted in the original projector reflector.

Kevin

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 22, 2017, 03:56 AM:

I may just get to the Blackpool event this year for the first time, and I will bring along the modified gs with hid lamp, this is my "Heath Robinsons" version of Bill's conversion. Not as bright, but the same principle, and all you will need is an old reflector, can be used with any of the super 8 machines, not sure it would be bright enough for the 16mm version though, but I've not tried it, its a maybe....

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on August 22, 2017, 10:41 AM:

This person added a 150watt HID automobile conversion to his projector, it appears plenty bright. He took a standard projector quartz lamp and drilled out the center leaving the reflector.

https://www.facebook.com/100004808084840/videos/693737880796475/

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 22, 2017, 01:11 PM:

I really like such a conversion on my GS1200 also, but I do not see myself shipping my GS1200 to the UK by post.

Are there otrhers who do this conversion in the Netherlands, Belgium or Germany, so I can drive to there?

I could go on vacation to the UK if it's a nice place for vacation for me and my wife, and if this HID conversion doesn't take too long, hahaha.

On the other hand,...
If this conversion can be done on a ESC lamp for the GS1200, we are there.

https://www.facebook.com/100004808084840/videos/693737880796475/

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 23, 2017, 01:54 PM:

It can be done Matthieu as I have done this. You need to position the lamp exactly where the original ESC lamp was, its a trial and error thing, but the results are good enough for house hold use, or an equivalent large hall, and the colour is better than the original esc lamp, and nearly as bright lux wise as the beaulieu, and that's with the 3 blade standard shutter, so a two blade maybe on par. You can use the same cooling fan as this does not get much hotter than the original lamp, the tricky bit is converting the reflector because its glass, I could do this for you, you will need a blown ESC lamp for the conversion....

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 23, 2017, 04:14 PM:

Thank you for the offer.
This way I do not have to convert anything in the projector and only place the converted lamp?

I just ordered 4 ESC lamps, so I can send 1 to you as soon as they arrived from the US.
I rather not wait for the lamp to die hahaha.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2